devmaster - dead or alive?

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knackered3 101 Nov 25, 2004 at 14:50

Is it me or is this site dead?

29 Replies

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SpreeTree 101 Nov 25, 2004 at 18:32

Its is definatly true that the number of posts has decreased since Flipcode came back from the dead itself, but also the number of “Crap not another one of those questions” posts have also decreased, so its not all bad.

DevMasters is still one of the best places to get well thought out, and useful, replies than anywhere else in my opinion

Spree

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NomadRock 101 Nov 26, 2004 at 04:18

Flipcode is beginning to be a lot more like gamedev as it has gotten a lot of new people lately, and devmaster has gotten a lot more like the old flipcode. flipcode is still nice, but devmaster is my new hole away from most of the idiots.

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knackered3 101 Nov 26, 2004 at 13:42

With all due respect, could someone who DOESN’T have a vested interest in this site care to comment? (are there any left who have it bookmarked?)…

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Goz 101 Nov 26, 2004 at 14:25

@knackered3

With all due respect, could someone who DOESN’T have a vested interest in this site care to comment? (are there any left who have it bookmarked?)… [snapback]14144[/snapback]

With all due respect i don’t thick either Nomad Rock or Spree Tree have a vested interest…

Personally i’ve had some interesting discussions. So what if its not bursting at the seams with acitvity. I know where i’ll come to when i have a complicated problem to discuss.

Ya know whats funny about flipcode though. I have answered thousands of people’s questions and not once has anyone answered any question i’ve asked … says a lot for the level of competency on the forum ;)

Why do you care anyway? If you think its dead you don’t have to check it.

One word comes to mind … TROLL!

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john 102 Nov 26, 2004 at 15:00

knackered, why are you so much against this site? The interesting thing is, although you seem to dislike it, you still seem to stick around.
as Goz said … TROLL!

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baldurk 101 Nov 26, 2004 at 15:28

@Goz

One word comes to mind … TROLL! [snapback]14145[/snapback]

@john

as Goz said … TROLL! [snapback]14146[/snapback]

Perhaps knackered could, as he often could, have phrased it in a better way. However, I would say that the point is valid and worth discussing.

I’m not going to say yay or nay because I have a vested interest in the site.

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Goz 101 Nov 26, 2004 at 15:57

@baldurk

Perhaps knackered could, as he often could, have phrased it in a better way. However, I would say that the point is valid and worth discussing.

I’m not going to say yay or nay because I have a vested interest in the site.

[snapback]14148[/snapback]

I assume you know the guy? ‘Cos its a blatant trolling technique …

Hmm … been a long time since my IRC troll’ing days :lol:

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Mihail121 102 Nov 26, 2004 at 18:50

I’m here… and i always will be!

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baldurk 101 Nov 26, 2004 at 21:31

@Goz

I assume you know the guy? ‘Cos its a blatant trolling technique …

Hmm … been a long time since my IRC troll’ing days :lol:

[snapback]14150[/snapback]

only as much as you do, I would think. However, from what I can tell he often presents his views without politeness or courtesy, I’ve rarely seen him simply troll. Most of the time he has a valid point, or at least an opinion that isn’t just intended to cause flames. As in this case he’s raised a good point. You can fault his way of raising it perhaps, but I would think it’s better to ignore that and discuss the point than waste your time with ad hominem attacks.

Just my thoughts.

edit: spelling.

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knackered3 101 Nov 28, 2004 at 18:01

Wow. An island of sanity in this wilderness of knee jerk reactionaries. Sorry for the mixed metaphor.
I agree I’m impolite sometimes, most of the time to be honest, but my intent is never to troll, whatever that means. I attempt to argue points I’m interested in, and don’t see why other peoples sensabilities should be a concern of mine. If I upset someone by speaking my mind, then I consider that their problem and not mine. I don’t restrict this approach to the internet - I’m like this in the pub too. I like black humour (re: bad taste, not racist..before you ban me again) which also lands me in trouble, especially in the pub.
I stick around and ask the question about the site being alive or dead simply because I think it’s a really good site - the content is a bit lacking, but the layout and mechanics of it are spot on in my opinion. If there’s something beneficial to the site to come out of having this discussion then I’ll be happy. Just don’t expect me to sugar up anything I say, in case I offend.

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NomadRock 101 Nov 28, 2004 at 19:39

@knackered3

my intent is never to troll, whatever that means. [snapback]14179[/snapback]

If that wasn’t a trolling effort, I don’t know what is ;)

So knackered, care to help out with the lacking in content? An article perhaps? What is it you do? What do you specialize in? What are you working on?

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anubis 101 Nov 28, 2004 at 21:10

I stick around and ask the question about the site being alive or dead simply because I think it’s a really good site

that was the first positive thing i heard out of your mouth so far… i’m impressed :)
keep it up…

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bladder 101 Nov 28, 2004 at 22:57

@knackered3

With all due respect, could someone who DOESN’T have a vested interest in this site care to comment? (are there any left who have it bookmarked?)… [snapback]14144[/snapback]

bookmarked? It’s still one of my homepages - but I guess me dosent count…

but anyway, every place has its ups and downs. I’ve been missing a lot on the internet the past few weeks - exams/projects/harddrive crash!! But it seems like ill be regular again…

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baldurk 101 Nov 29, 2004 at 16:12

@NomadRock

@knackered3

my intent is never to troll, whatever that means. [snapback]14179[/snapback]

If that wasn’t a trolling effort, I don’t know what is ;)

So knackered, care to help out with the lacking in content? An article perhaps? What is it you do? What do you specialize in? What are you working on?

[snapback]14182[/snapback]

That’s roughly equivalent to the childhood saying “If you can’t do better, don’t criticise”. He’s got a perfect right to raise this topic because no-one had before.

However on the other hand, a community is nothing but the sum of its members. If we lose members (for example when flipcode returned and people stopped trumpeting this place as “Flipcode 2.0” - thank god) or the input from members slows down, the site will slow down. Bringing the site back to a more active life is as simple as providing more input.

Knackered reminds me in some ways of bishop_pass from GDNet, for those of you who know/knew him. He was a very knowledgable and level-headed guy as was demonstrated when the GDNet staff gave him moderator privileges/responsibilities. However, he all but stopped posting totally (he has since returned). The reason? he was too forthright for many members and presented his views without any niceties and dancing around the point.

It’s a shame, but it seems to be human nature.

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SYS49152 101 Nov 29, 2004 at 17:28

i like this site. its not overrun and there are alot of nice people with good skills.
ofcourse some people are back to flipcode but i think this has nothing to say really.
its not the sum of articles or posts thats make a site strong.

anyway i like this site. so keep it up !!! :)

  • Andy

ps: i would contribute more but do to my spare time and my bad english…….. hehe :)

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NomadRock 101 Nov 30, 2004 at 03:50

Oh, I am not saying he shouldn’t raise the point. I am trying to get him to reveal a bit more about himself. He generally only talks about other projects, and while I have heard a good deal about the projects of other members, he remains elusive. Now that I think about it, the same goes for you baldurk. What do you do?

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knackered3 101 Nov 30, 2004 at 11:53

Well I’d rather not start talking about the specifics of my work, to be honest. Reason being that this name tag I’ve lumbered myself with has been involved in some pretty nasty ‘debates’ over the years on various forums, and the casual observer would see my posts (taken out of context) as being venomous and nasty, and completely miss the positive contributions. With this in mind, I don’t want to give anybody any clues as to my true identity (I’m not saying I’m in anyway famous - just in the business we call ‘graphics’). So, I’m a successful graphics programmer - not a genius, just someone who’s done some pretty stuff over many years.
If I can help, I will. But time is not on my side at the moment, though you’d never know it considering the amount of crap I’ve been spouting on the forums recently….my rebuild-all times are huge is all I can say.
I could potentially do some simple tutorials on the following:-
Cheap image based effects such as fake HDR, bloom, depth-of-field, cheap soft shadows, full scene reflection/refraction (pervertex/perpixel), volumetric fog effects, fft water rendering. I know these things have been covered before, but all the tutorials I’ve seen have been very accademic and elitist…bit overwhelming for someone who just wants the effect and doesn’t have an interest in how it was conceived, and how it can be taken forward. From personal experience, deadlines make it imperitive to get down to the gritty details as soon as possible, something accademics don’t seem to appreciate.
So, you should have a section called “Show me how to….” followed by a series of links to these articles…if no article has been written, you simply leave an email link for so someone can submit one. I may drop one in there if it were that simple.

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SYS49152 101 Nov 30, 2004 at 14:19

@knackered3

I know these things have been covered before, but all the tutorials I’ve seen have been very accademic and elitist…bit overwhelming for someone who just wants the effect and doesn’t have an interest in how it was conceived, and how it can be taken forward. [snapback]14234[/snapback]

well said. this was one of the first problems i come over when i started with 3d programming. most of the docs out there was way to hard to read for me as an beginner or way to accademic like you said.

( still is not easy… hehe )

  • Andy
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baldurk 101 Nov 30, 2004 at 16:08

@NomadRock

Oh, I am not saying he shouldn’t raise the point. I am trying to get him to reveal a bit more about himself. He generally only talks about other projects, and while I have heard a good deal about the projects of other members, he remains elusive. Now that I think about it, the same goes for you baldurk. What do you do? [snapback]14216[/snapback]

heh. Unfortunately, I’m still pretty much a newbie to graphics programming. The best things that I’ve done are probably my entries to the contests on this site :/.
@knackered3

Well I’d rather not start talking about the specifics of my work, to be honest. Reason being that this name tag I’ve lumbered myself with has been involved in some pretty nasty ‘debates’ over the years on various forums, and the casual observer would see my posts (taken out of context) as being venomous and nasty, and completely miss the positive contributions. With this in mind, I don’t want to give anybody any clues as to my true identity (I’m not saying I’m in anyway famous - just in the business we call ‘graphics’). So, I’m a successful graphics programmer - not a genius, just someone who’s done some pretty stuff over many years.
If I can help, I will. But time is not on my side at the moment, though you’d never know it considering the amount of crap I’ve been spouting on the forums recently….my rebuild-all times are huge is all I can say.
I could potentially do some simple tutorials on the following:-
Cheap image based effects such as fake HDR, bloom, depth-of-field, cheap soft shadows, full scene reflection/refraction (pervertex/perpixel), volumetric fog effects, fft water rendering. I know these things have been covered before, but all the tutorials I’ve seen have been very accademic and elitist…bit overwhelming for someone who just wants the effect and doesn’t have an interest in how it was conceived, and how it can be taken forward. From personal experience, deadlines make it imperitive to get down to the gritty details as soon as possible, something accademics don’t seem to appreciate.
So, you should have a section called “Show me how to….” followed by a series of links to these articles…if no article has been written, you simply leave an email link for so someone can submit one. I may drop one in there if it were that simple. [snapback]14234[/snapback]

It’s a kind of viscious cycle with most articles above intermediate level - they assume in depth knowledge of X, which assumes knowledge of Y, which assumes knowledge of Z, which assumes knowledge of X. Unless you can somehow break in, or you have some sort of extra boost, you can’t get into the circle.

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NomadRock 101 Nov 30, 2004 at 17:52

@knackered3

So, you should have a section called “Show me how to….” followed by a series of links to these articles…if no article has been written, you simply leave an email link for so someone can submit one. I may drop one in there if it were that simple. [snapback]14234[/snapback]

That is actually a very good idea. We should also probably have someone serve as editor for that section, as it should be kept to the bare minimum to get the desired effect. In normal articles no one makes any claim to how difficult they are, or how bloated with extra information they may be. In a section like that it would be useful to have someone checking to make sure theory stayed out of them.

It would probably also be useful to catagorize them by api under the topic. For example if you had a topic of “stencil shadows” you would want one for opengl and another for DirectX. “how to make a hinge joint” would also need seperate sections for seperate physics systems.

I would be willing to write up a few, especially since they would be small enough that they could be written relatively quickly. This might solve the cyclic problem since they would most definately include code that could be dropped in without fully understanding the theory. Then as the user grew to know more they could work on tweaking the code to their special needs, or for the likes of quaternions, never touch it again because understanding the theory doesnt really help you much.

In short, I like it.

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JSoftware 101 Nov 30, 2004 at 19:27

“show me how to…”:

Sounds like a brilliant idea! that’s surely been my great problem in this short time i’ve baffled with 3d graphics not to be able to read and understand all this math, and afterwards transfer it to code!

i would love to contribute with, maybe some pascal/delphi ports of eventual code..

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SpreeTree 101 Nov 30, 2004 at 20:29

Wouldnt this be along the lines of the code snippits from other game sites?
Still a good idea though :)

Spree

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NomadRock 101 Nov 30, 2004 at 22:07

It could be, but I had always thought of code snippits as being interesting pieces of code that is small enough to grok easily.

This stuff would entail a few code files usually, perhaps a small library. At least that’s what I had in mind.

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baldurk 101 Dec 01, 2004 at 16:04

hmm. I’m not convinced that removing all theory and providing complete sample code is a good idea. Then you end up with nehe where people simple copy-paste the code, and when it doesn’t work come to complain here. What we want is simple to understand explanation of how the technique works, and some pseudocode or similar to demonstrate in practicality. I don’t mean looking at the deep mathematics behind proving the technique works, but at least trying to make sure that the reader understands the technique.

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NomadRock 101 Dec 02, 2004 at 10:51

You have a good point, but NeHe is wildly popular with good reason. It is easy to start on. Sometimes there are several dependent effects I want to play with but I kind of need the others while I am playing with one. It is helpful to have some useful placeholders in these situations. I am not saying theory should be thrown into the wind, but there is more than one way to learn.

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Polar_Sleuth 101 Dec 02, 2004 at 15:22

Is the DevMater site dead? No, people are still here and are posting in the forums. But by some of the indicators, it is no longer really active (e.g., Image of the Day, number of daily posts, no new tutorials, etc).

As to flipcode, they returned with a good series - but additional articles are … lacking. Even flipcode is struggling to maintain a stream of the daily gristle outside the forums.

If you measure the vitality of a site by the contributions of its members to the articles / tutorials and images, then no game development site is alive. The rate of contribution per member is too low. Most people have enough time to write a few lines in a forum post, but not the time to write an actual article or save a screen shot.

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baldurk 101 Dec 02, 2004 at 15:25

@NomadRock

You have a good point, but NeHe is wildly popular with good reason. It is easy to start on. Sometimes there are several dependent effects I want to play with but I kind of need the others while I am playing with one. It is helpful to have some useful placeholders in these situations. I am not saying theory should be thrown into the wind, but there is more than one way to learn. [snapback]14290[/snapback]

Heh. I help out on an opengl IRC channel (#opengl on irc.enterthegame.com </plug>). Unfortunately I have to deal with the downside of NeHe which is that it gives people too easy access to working code. I think a good mix between code and theory is best - so that people have to complete the code themselves, by understanding the theory.

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NomadRock 101 Dec 02, 2004 at 17:31

Perhaps, at that point it comes down to the age old question of letting people pick what is best for themselves or picking for them. I would like to pick for myself, but it is true that there are a great deal of people who are poor at picking.

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SpreeTree 101 Dec 02, 2004 at 17:53

@Polar Sleuth

But by some of the indicators, it is no longer really active (e.g., Image of the Day, number of daily posts, no new tutorials, etc).

I agree with that point, but as devmasters is a pretty small community, theres nothing you can really do especially in regards to the image of the day. The articles have seen little increase, but the majority of the articles are top notch, some of the info you cant find on other sites, and I thnk thats how it should be… For now anyway ;)

Spree