Custom World Project

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mystd 101 Aug 04, 2011 at 14:34

I’m not a good coder nor a good artist, but I’m full blood gamer. I’ve started with cga games and I’am still into playing games. I’ve always dreamed of being a game dev, but I just don’t have the endurance needed to be a good coder/artist. It’s a steep mountain that I always fail to climb… Because I really like gaming and played hundreds maybe over 1k games (never counted) my standards/claims got higher and I’m really fed up with games nowdays. It’s like there is one game a year I can really enjoy playing, most games have lost too much quality. Only games I currently can enjoy are indie games, the rest is just a repetition/remake of old games and lack in every way. Over the years I’ve testet almost all game making tools out there and they all suck badly. The non coder can make some small shitty games and a good coder does not need it. Luckily I always write down any ideas I have. Until now I kept them for myself because I always hoped I could do the core coding etc., but after I learned java recently and failed to make some simple games again, I thought: Screw it! Go public with at least your Game Making idea, see what the pros think about it and maybe some are interested and will join you. So here it is: http://www.bds-projects.com/CustomWorld/index.html

I’m gratefull for any support even if it’s just criticism & ideas. I’m not really good at anything but thinking up games, but if the projects gets some followers I’m willing to invest a lot of time and the money I can spare. Sadly I’m not rich otherwise this idea would be a reality already \^-\^

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geon 101 Aug 04, 2011 at 15:27

Not to discourage you, but the document focuses on (the wrong) details.

You need to define what the project should be at a high level. What about it is fun?

It seems you focus on the fantasy genre (creatures, spells), but you don’t state this clearly.

The scope of it all is *very* large. Does it actually need to be multiplatform? Does there have to be multiple toolsets for different skill levels? Would they be integrated (just hiding features not wanted/needed) or separate (separate applications). Would the tools be available from within the game? What features are dependent on others? What features are the most essential? What features are easiest/hardest to implement?

Why would you have a custom object/animation editor for advanced users? They will want to use their own tools (Maya, Z-brush) anyway.

Apart from the idea about mandating a common license for all user created assets, what would set this project apart from a product like Unity?

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mystd 101 Aug 04, 2011 at 16:17

Thanks for pointing those out, I’ll change it asap \^-\^
I didn’t know unity until now, seems pretty complex.

About your questions:

-My focus on the fantasy genre is only because I like it, it’s meant for any kind of game.

-Multiplatform would be best, can’t imagine it windows only.

-Well I thought of it more like the features are there but the advanced ones are hidden until the user changes the tool to a different mode or turns them on/off

-Would be nice if the tools would be available ingame but that would depend on the engine. CW is not a game engine, it’s a community based game dev environment, where different engines can be used. That’s why I put a “translator” module in the picture. That one would translate/convert the CW user made stuff so that it can be used with the different engines.

-The custom object/animation editor is for those that can’t use maya/3ds etc.. Of course I want the pros to be able to use thair preferred 3D modeling software.

-About the fun part I don’t really get it, if it’s easy to use and provides fast results with good quality of course it will be fun \^-\^

Just had a quick look at unity, I imagnine CW easier to get into (like playing with lego) of course it has to be complex too. Also CW would be open source of course and thus give the community more freedom because the tools can be changed/modded etc. After some time the complexity of user made content would be very big and probably bigger than any other game dev software, because everyone shares thair work. You also don’t have to pay 1.5K for the software since it is free. You can earn money by fullfilling the user requests and I think this feature is very unique and will be the main “selling” point of CW.

edit: I’ve added to/changed the text, I hope it’s clearer now. If not plz tell me.

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mystd 101 Aug 04, 2011 at 20:56

I’ve checked unity a bit more now, watched some tuts etc. Unity seems to be a game engine thats somewhat easier to make games for but CW is not meant as engine it’s a game dev environment that’s so easy to use, that players (not devs) that don’t have the time, skill or knowlege can make games too. It’s not restricted to beginners only, it’s meant to be flexible so beginners and pros can work with it. The good thing is the pros can make scripts/models and the beginners can just use the scripts without having to write them themselfs. Most importantly pros can earn fame and/or money through the request feature. Beginners too can model with the “lego” like editors.

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geon 101 Aug 04, 2011 at 21:35

So what you want is a development environment for games, that can be used with several diffrent engines? That seems like a bad idea. All engines are different, so you would end up only supporting the lowest common denominator.

By the way, what engines did you have in mind?

“a game dev environment that’s so easy to use, that players (not devs) that don’t have the time, skill or knowlege can make games too.”

This is not a new idea. It has been done for programming languages and tools over and over, usually with horrible results. (basic, cobol, uml) Basically, it is a fools errand.

Making a unique, good looking, fun and well performing game is *hard*. Good tools certainly helps, but it will never be simple. As far as complete, imtegrated, graphical tools goes, Unity is pretty much state of the art.

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mystd 101 Aug 04, 2011 at 22:48

Well that would depend on the engines and how the translator/converter modules work. I don’t have any special engine in mind, they could be build for CW. I know it’s not a new idea, but I think CW if thought through well could be the first one that is really usable. I know that making good games is hard, it’s way too hard, that’s why I’ve come up with CW, so it’ll make it easier. Especially recources are a problem, but with a community where everyone shares thair recources productivity will be boosted a lot. If you make a Model with a 3D modeling software you can use it in a lot of different engines so I don’t really see a problem there. Recources can be optimized for the engines. If you make a texture you can always convert it into different formats. You have to see the CW tools as simplistic versions of the tools a game dev normally uses. I agree that Unity is good but it’s still too complex for beginners, the first step of the stairs is too high. I always encounter 2 types of game making software those that are very simple but very limited and those that are very complex but hard to get into. I want CW to be both simple but with the flexibility to be very complex.

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alphadog 101 Aug 05, 2011 at 13:19

@mystd

I always encounter 2 types of game making software those that are very simple but very limited and those that are very complex but hard to get into. I want CW to be both simple but with the flexibility to be very complex.

I want a hammer, that also functions as a nail gun, that has multiple screwdriver attachments, both the tool and the drink, for my home repairs. It would be great if it could cut steel pipe, but also able to cut gentle bezier curves in balsa wood. It must grind, slice and dice. It must also be easy to use, reliable, perform well and be inexpensive.

Why hasn’t anyone built one yet?

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mystd 101 Aug 05, 2011 at 14:30

Thx for your useless comment @alphadog I expect more from a staff member than trolling around.

It’s pretty easy to hide advanced features so beginners use the standard ones first, there are a lot of programms that use this. I understand that u guys are in love with Unity, but it’s not for players it’s for devs.

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rouncer 103 Aug 05, 2011 at 14:36

check out 3dcoat, its a voxel modeller, and you can use it like lego (just sticking different premade objects together to make a customized whole entity)

look at the space ship making video “rich primitives” , its really simple and looks great. http://www.3d-coat.com/

really i dont see how programming or art takes skill to do, i think its all easy, it is time consuming tho. :) or am i a genius, i doubt it, if you think you cant do it, your wrong.

but i think you have a lot to learn before you could make or even design anything decent, theres too many pitfalls for a beginner, like im looking back over 12 years experience, so i sorta take it for granted.
im not sure your “block based landscape” is a good idea… maybe if i had a few beers with you and i got to tell you everything i know, maybe i could help you out?

you on windows messenger? look me up rouncer81@hotmail.com.

as far as i see it, 3d modelling shouldnt be any more complicated than making a lego space ship, no shit.

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mystd 101 Aug 05, 2011 at 15:10

If you have learned something and have experience everything is easy \^-\^ It depends on the users skill & time. My aim is very low, I want a 6 year old (or ppl with that mindset) to be able to use those tools. Also CW ist not a software! It is a community platform that offers software.

Don’t see it as blocks see it as parts, they are also round etc. It’s a good start for users with 0 experience. Also those parts count will grow with the community, because everyone can make them. Lets say someone made a soccer ball and uploaded it, that soccer ball would be available for everyone to use. Kinda like the java library. The main part of CW is the request feature and that content library. The tools are there so beginners are able to do something too. The first thing I’ll do will be that request feature anyway because that’s the base of the whole project.

Yea I’m using nimbuzz added u \^-\^

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geon 101 Aug 05, 2011 at 15:24

Alphadog was not “trolling around”.

You want people without any skills to be able to create games. Won’t happen. Get over it.

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mystd 101 Aug 05, 2011 at 16:00

@geon WRONG, I want to create something that will make game dev easier. I want to create a platform for ppl that don’t have the resources or the time to create everything from scratch and it’s aimed for beginners & pros. Whats faster using a library full of Models, Animations, Scripts or making them yourself? Also what skill? Modeling? Programming? Someones skill can be to be very creative. If someone like that has a very good idea for a game but not the time/team to make it from scratch it will never happen. With CW those would also have a chance to make thair ideas into games.

If it wasn’t trolling what was it? Constructive criticism?

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rouncer 103 Aug 05, 2011 at 16:37

i dont see you on messenger, you sure you added me right?

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mystd 101 Aug 05, 2011 at 17:19

Ah sry forgot to add my msn acc, don’t really use it. Damn nimbuzz cant reply to you X_X Well you’r shown as offline, perhaps thats why I cant reply. Ahh no it sais awaiting confirmation. Sry just started using nimbuzz some weeks ago. I think you have to add me too perhaps? Screw it I’m installing msn, I don’t like it though T_T

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geon 101 Aug 05, 2011 at 18:50

> Whats faster using a library full of Models, Animations, Scripts or making them yourself?

If you are going to spend the time and work to create a game on your own, would you use generic models, art styles that don’t fit together and wade through countless pages of low quality crap to find the few OK assets?

If you want to support any engine, there will be scripts for some engines, and not for others. Scripts will be in different languages, using different APIs. For the user this will just be frustrating.

What *could* work would be a community built around a single engine with a good existing tool set. Focus on one art style (toon, realistic, abstract), one type of game (strategy, FPS, racing, dating sim), and one genre (fantasy, sci-fi, furries).

The big challenge would be to build your community, so you would need to focus. Pick a small niche and build the best possible community there. Expand later.

There is a lot of good advice online on how to build and grow a healthy community. Read up on that. It is also something a non-technical person can do.

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alphadog 101 Aug 05, 2011 at 21:50

@mystd

Thx for your useless comment @alphadog I expect more from a staff member than trolling around.

You were insulted by my use of an analogy? I said nothing about you as a person.
@mystd

It’s pretty easy to hide advanced features so beginners use the standard ones first, there are a lot of programms that use this. I understand that u guys are in love with Unity, but it’s not for players it’s for devs.

It may be easy to hide, but you still have to code it all. It’s easy to hide knives in a swiss army knife for a user of the knife, but it is much more complicated and expensive to build than a regular knife.

(Apologies if I insulted you again by continued use of analogies.)

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mystd 101 Aug 05, 2011 at 22:45

About the generic low quality crap, it’s not that hard to implement categories, ratings, sorting functions, searchs and the like. Also it’s something that dosn’t exist, you can’t know if the users upload crap. Art styles can be categorized and it’s better to have something you can use than nothing. Sure there won’t be scripts for every engine, but thats what the request feature is for. Using only one engine for a “niche” is of course less complex and easier, but that would limit CW drastically and make CW just like every other Game Dev software already out there.

@alphadog yes I was insulted by that exaggeration, you don’t need to say something about a person to insult them. I like your swiss army knife analogy much better. I’ll just cut off all the tools and make it an recource archive first. The tools aren’t the important part anyway, they can come later.

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_NOISEcore 101 Aug 06, 2011 at 18:45

So you want to create a tool-set / library that holds tools for all kinds of different engines, different types
of games, different styles, etc.. and usable by both unexperienced as experienced persons?
No offense ment, but that’s like trying to create a planet with a spoon.

The reason why this hasn’t been done before, is not because it’s impossible, but because it’s next to impossible.
I don’t even think that a team of hundreds of programmers would be able to do this.
There’s a reason why engines and tool-sets are pointed towards one specific genre or style.
Even though the analogy of alphadog might be quite offensive, it is still true and fits your desire perfectly.

If you have no experience with coding / modeling / designing, set some smaller goals first.
“First try to change your home before you change the world.”

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mystd 101 Aug 08, 2011 at 08:09

So Blender/Maya/3Ds etc. are next to impossible? Is it really written that badly that nobody gets what I’ve planned? Again the editors are only an easy version of the stuff that is already available and again they aren’t even the important part…. To make an analogy with spoons, what I’m trying to do with CW is gathering thousands of ppl with spoons, hundreds with shovels and a couple with excavators.

Editors aside, what do you think of a recource library the way I’ve imagined it?

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alphadog 101 Aug 08, 2011 at 14:05

At this point, I am confused by the nebulous definition of your project. Is it an editor like Maya? multiple editors? an online resource site? a wrapper for multiple engines? an MMO? a floor wax? a desert topping? all of the above?

Maybe you could restate your elevator pitch?

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mystd 101 Aug 09, 2011 at 07:11

I wrote platform because I’m not sure if it should be a website or software. It would be mainly for sharing resources but also offer software for easily creating content. Like that character editor/creator, where one can make an unique char in like 5 min. Kinda like 3D-Coat/Poser except it would work with everything the users provide. Depending on the community you could have thousands of different heads, torsos, etc. Same for the world editor you could search for mountains or race tracks and if you don’t like the ones u find, u can still use them as base and change them to your liking. For that you can use the easy to use provided tools (that are not part of the sharing software/website, only a link/download) or just use the ones you like better.

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alphadog 101 Aug 09, 2011 at 17:58

Well, there are lots of asset sites: TurboSquid, Falling Pixel, The 3D Studio. What’s different about your site? You can upload, and sell, any assets from almost any editor on those sites.

And, yes, you can make a character model in some existing editors pretty quick (although not 5 minutes), but what you don’t realize is how hard it is to code up this masterful, proprietary editor with a great UX that would work “with everything the users provide”.

And, please don’t take the big dose of reality the wrong way. Differentiators are key to viability of a project…

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mystd 101 Aug 09, 2011 at 23:19

You can earn money, you don’t sell - you share, that’s the difference. How do you know that I don’t know how hard it is? Can you look in my head? I know it is hard, but you have to see this as an idea I have, that I’m sharing to see what ppl like/dislike about it, to improve it, because I’m not all knowing.

What I mostly just got is: impossible why do you even bother. What I want is: that part is ok, this part I don’t understand, that part you have to think over. Which I also got a bit + don’t bother it’s impossible.

I get the feeling you guys just try to demotivate me for some reason I can’t comprehend and I only can guess a little. Thank you all for taking your time to at least talk with me. I was able to improve and form my idea a bit better, but I don’t think this is going any further. I keep repeating myself and I’m fed up with it.

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alphadog 101 Aug 09, 2011 at 23:41

@mystd

you share, that’s the difference

Asset sites are bandwidth-heavy, and bandwidth is not cheap. Who’s going to pay for running the site? How?
@mystd

you guys just try to demotivate me for some reason

Yes, that’s right. This whole site exists only to put down newbies.

Here’s the fundamental problem: you equate solid, realistic advice with demotivation. Some do. I’ve seen my fair share of overly-sensitive types. OTOH, plenty of people have come and gone through these forums and listened to those with more experience, tweaked their ideas perhaps, and… well, who knows, because they never come back. B)

IOW, you don’t want to listen, you just want approval.

So, fine, you have a wonderful idea. Good luck and have fun!

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mystd 101 Aug 10, 2011 at 08:00

I know that Asset websites are bandwidth-heavy. But I also wrote /software right? I wrote I’m not sure if I make it a website or software, you know how bit torrent works? Problem solved. Also I write something and 40% of what I write just gets ignored and then ppl just interpret anything they want in that part and I’m fed up with ->!!! repeating myself !!!<-

I don’t know if I’m too stupid to write clearly or if ppl just don’t really care reading what I write. It’s just that I get the feeling this isn’t moving forward because I keep repeating myself.

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iPride 101 Aug 14, 2011 at 02:14

Thanks for this but can you maybe go more in depth about the games?

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Vee 101 Aug 17, 2011 at 11:06

@alphadog

I want a hammer, that also functions as a nail gun, that has multiple screwdriver attachments, both the tool and the drink, for my home repairs. It would be great if it could cut steel pipe, but also able to cut gentle bezier curves in balsa wood. It must grind, slice and dice. It must also be easy to use, reliable, perform well and be inexpensive. Why hasn’t anyone built one yet?

1) Cuz not most of the ppl want that, otherwise the marketing specialist, the researchers, the studies and so on would focus on this.
2) This will be the future, with one company being able to deliver this. Why I’m saying this ? Many and many more companies keep buying on smaller companies in different domains so that they can do everything, see Google who bought Motorola only a few days ago, eBay, Amazon, etc. Their aim from my perspective? Being able to deliver everything anytime anywhere. At the moment, Black and Decker or Husqvarna ( which fits ur description so far ) would not see the point in doing this now as it’s not requested. But we will reach that level too, using a multitool, see Victorinox and their stuff.
3) An artist who would do wood sculpture would not use this cuz he’s an artist, different than u and me, has a different mentality, superior that is, and it won’t be able to handle the huge thing ur calling for making art, only for destroying wood maybe. Or if it’s a lightsabre.
4) I don’t see the relevance of ur smart@$$ comment compared to the post. I mean every1 can understand what ur saying and every1 is thinking like u, dont think ur special in any kind, only that none of us flame as much as u. I’m sorry.

Now related to the post:
It’s a good idea however the casual user, will not be able to use this game properly. Think it this way since u played over 1k games. The games u played 10 years ago were harder or easier to play/have success at in general pvp ( and I mean measuring ur intelligence, knowledge, skills, etc vs another human, not pve - against the code…). If we look back, in order to be a good quake 2 player u needed brains too. In order to be a good medal of honor or i donno what 3dshooters ppl play these days, u need lots of practice, aim for the head, throw the grenades on the spawn point, etc. Think how hard was to get a good place on the ladder in Starcraft and how easy it is nowadays.
And the list goes on. For example, I can make a bet. Whoever care to hold it against me im up for it np. I bet that the next big MMo coming out, the SW one, will have an improved graphical environment, effects, etc but it will be easier to handle as in u press 1 and the character does something that looks like a combo. It’s good. User friendly ftw. However we get dumber and dumber everyday. Compare chess to an MMO. Or a 3ds. Or whatever. The idea of the game is half dead.

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rouncer 103 Aug 17, 2011 at 12:15

they still havent made an mmo id want to play yet, my favorite game so far is rage :)

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alphadog 101 Aug 17, 2011 at 12:39

@Vee

1) Cuz not most of the ppl want that, otherwise the marketing specialist, the researchers, the studies and so on would focus on this.
2) This will be the future, with one company being able to deliver this. Why I’m saying this ? Many and many more companies keep buying on smaller companies in different domains so that they can do everything, see Google who bought Motorola only a few days ago, eBay, Amazon, etc. Their aim from my perspective? Being able to deliver everything anytime anywhere. At the moment, Black and Decker or Husqvarna ( which fits ur description so far ) would not see the point in doing this now as it’s not requested. But we will reach that level too, using a multitool, see Victorinox and their stuff.
3) An artist who would do wood sculpture would not use this cuz he’s an artist, different than u and me, has a different mentality, superior that is, and it won’t be able to handle the huge thing ur calling for making art, only for destroying wood maybe. Or if it’s a lightsabre.
4) I don’t see the relevance of ur smart@$$ comment compared to the post. I mean every1 can understand what ur saying and every1 is thinking like u, dont think ur special in any kind, only that none of us flame as much as u. I’m sorry.

I was trying to stay out of this thread, since my opnion on this matter is not well-taken. But, if I am going to be singled out, I will go into rebuttal mode.

1) It was just an analogy, not a business plan.
2) People have, for *decades*, claimed that that they will deliver a product that does “everything” and, in the future, life will be simpler because of it. People have promised even grander software that the OP’s would make programmers obsolete. I’m still waiting.
3) Did I forget to mention my hypothetical device would also be small, portable and include a lightsaber? ;) (I think you are taking the analogy a little too literally.)
4) If the relevance of my analogy is lost on you, it’s because maybe you don’t have enough experience to know what makes a project almost destined for failure. How many large IT software projects have you brought to completion? More importantly, how many large projects have you spearheaded that failed? I don’t think I am special in any kind. Quite the opposite. But, honest opinion is often misunderstood, esp. when it goes against the grain.

I’m sorry if some people got insulted by an analogy; it was meant as an example to illustrate the idea that too much wished-for functionality in one project is very likely to send it on a course for the waterfalls, not to insult the project originator.

People who refuse to accept what I just said are people who aren’t open to listening; they just want to kill the messenger and keep the illusion alive.

So, go and prove me wrong! 100% honestly, I’d love for you guys to come back and make me eat crow.

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Vee 101 Aug 17, 2011 at 13:06

@alphadog

I was trying to stay out of this thread, since my opnion on this matter is not well-taken. But, if I am going to be singled out, I will go into rebuttal mode.

1) It was just an analogy, not a business plan.
2) People have, for *decades*, claimed that that they will deliver a product that does “everything” and, in the future, life will be simpler because of it. People have promised even grander software that the OP’s would make programmers obsolete. I’m still waiting.
3) Did I forget to mention my hypothetical device would also be small, portable and include a lightsaber? :) (I think you are taking the analogy a little too literally.)
4) If the relevance of my analogy is lost on you, it’s because maybe you don’t have enough experience to know what makes a project almost destined for failure. How many large IT software projects have you brought to completion? More importantly, how many large projects have you spearheaded that failed? I don’t think I am special in any kind. Quite the opposite. But, honest opinion is often misunderstood, esp. when it goes against the grain.

I’m sorry if some people got insulted by an analogy; it was meant as an example to illustrate the idea that too much wished-for functionality in one project is very likely to send it on a course for the waterfalls, not to insult the project originator.

People who refuse to accept what I just said are people who aren’t open to listening; they just want to kill the messenger and keep the illusion alive.

So, go and prove me wrong! 100% honestly, I’d love for you guys to come back and make me eat crow.

Nah man, I wasn’t offended. I understood ur analogy thats why I said that “don’t think ur special”. The analogy u did was wrong, u did it with something physical, a tool, compared to another tool indeed, but a different kind, a software. The human kind has evolved and will evolve further on, probably reaching the point where we will have those kind of tools. Not yet though. And here is where u should understand that my criticism towards your analogy was constructive as in, we should stop thinking that is impossible to do some sort of things. I’m sorry, I’m not a developer so I can’t talk about launching projects as u came back @ me. At the same time I haven’t made a comparison with my job. It’s just like saying : Ah, are u a developer ? No. Oh then u fail. Nice argument. I have launched IT projects which are part of some big multinationals, however that is not the point. And the term IT means a lot of things not necessarily developing ;)
I agree with you trying to be realist, but realism is something that is not done with analogies, but with facts. Since the project is not a all-in-one knife, then we are just allowed to share our opinions with the owner of the thread and try to be helpful or constructive.
I agree with “People who refuse to accept what I just said are people who aren’t open to listening; they just want to kill the messenger and keep the illusion alive. “ however u dismount the idea too fast. I wonder how much time have u spent analysing his idea :).
That’s all.
What I’m basically trying to say is we should be more oriented into helping than dismounting, in a realistic point of view always.
Yeah, indeed, u were the only one who came up with a realistic point of view, however the analogy was wrong, I understood that u meant that building something like that takes a lot of things, starting with passion and ending with knowledge,money,etc, but from my point of view, if u have an idea and somebody comes up and mocks u around u might lose the faith in that idea, therefore abandoning it and ending up with doing nothing.
Anyway, I ( i don’t know if all of them ) appreciate the dismounting tentative :)) From my point of view the owner should now think at what u said and modify he’s project so that your particular dismounting will be dismounted as in : but i have what ur saying already.
So far, my game idea was ran through different dismounting scenarios and so far the only things that makes me hold my thought is: what happens if ( according to the trend ) the game I make will be used in a different matter, starting with corporate marketing for example and ending with subliminal messaging or whatnot… What impact as in positive or negative will have my game on the world. Will it be good ? Will it bring something good to the community ? Am i chasing only the american dream ( a comparison as im not american and im not chasing that ) or am I doing this for the proper reasons. My project and idea is By gamers For gamers. Unlike Razer, I have to make something that hits something different than physics, the human psychology, and so on.

Anyway, keep up the good work, both of u.

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mystd 101 Aug 18, 2011 at 10:08

@Vee I don’t really understand why you compare gameplay to a game development environment, of course it’s harder to use than playing. Compare zBrush to Maya, Zbrush is kinda like I’ve imagined one of my editors. It is much more complex than mine of course, but it’s easier and faster to model with than maya/3ds etc. and that’s what I want to accomplish: an easier and faster way to make games.

Also I would like some more specific info on why you think that casual gamers wouldn’t be able to use CW.