Choosing my engine.

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momondo 101 Apr 12, 2011 at 12:18

Hey!
So, i would like to start making a small MMO.
I have been looking at Realmcrafter, and i looks great, but.
RealmCrafter got outdated graphics, and really slow support. (I contacted them about a year ago, and still no reply)..
So, do you know any engine, that got everything built-in, like RF does.
But with better graphics.
I am willing to pay, but as low as possible.
I got like no programming skills, i only made some really simple applications with Visual Basic Express..
So everything built-in would be awesome. (or atleast the most)
But if it is not possible, then i will try to learn a programming language. (If neccesary)
If you can possibly tell me a good 3D engine, it would be great.
Im not planning to go big, because i know i can’t. Im just hoping for some fun making it ;)
Thanks for your attention.

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vrnunes 102 Apr 12, 2011 at 14:32

if you can’t click the “search” button, you already shown you’re doomed to failure.

and i’m telling that for your own good.

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momondo 101 Apr 12, 2011 at 14:36

@vrnunes

if you can’t click the “search” button, you already shown you’re doomed to failure. and i’m telling that for your own good.

lol? Please read the entire post?
I cant fail… Because my goal isnt to make a good game… My goal is ONLY to have some fun..
And i know nothing about game engines, so i cant just search, because i wont be able to tell if its good…

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fireside 141 Apr 12, 2011 at 18:52

Unfortunately, there are no drag and drop MMO engines at present. MMO’s use a large amount of servers that cost money and that money has to come from somewhere. You could possibly make a game that could handle 20 - 150 people, depending on the type of game, with one dedicated server which would cost you about 50 dollars per month. That’s the Realmcrafter approach. Peer to Peer is a little more effective for the no money crowd because you are using your own computer as a server. It’s more multi-player than MMO. My advice would be to learn programming or try to find a game you like that has an editor in it and has multiplayer and make a mod.

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momondo 101 Apr 12, 2011 at 18:55

@fireside

Unfortunately, there are no drag and drop MMO engines at present. MMO’s use a large amount of servers that cost money and that money has to come from somewhere. You could possibly make a game that could handle 20 - 150 people, depending on the type of game, with one dedicated server which would cost you about 50 dollars per month. That’s the Realmcrafter approach. Peer to Peer is a little more effective for the no money crowd because you are using your own computer as a server. It’s more multi-player than MMO. My advice would be to learn programming or try to find a game you like that has an editor in it and make a mod.

Thanks. Ill start learning c++. unfortunately i cant concentrate for a long amount of time, so i will need to do it bit by bit. Thanks again ;)

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fireside 141 Apr 12, 2011 at 19:03

C++ isn’t a good starting language. Most people that try to do it self taught end up failing, not all. Python is a lot better to learn the basics of programming.

There’s a free ebook here:
http://inventwithpython.com/

It’s usually better to learn c++ as a second language. it’s quite complicated and not really as necessary to learn since many engines use other languages now.

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momondo 101 Apr 12, 2011 at 19:04

@fireside

C++ isn’t a good starting language. Most people that try to do it self taught end up failing, not all. Python is a lot better to learn the basics of programming.

There’s a free ebook here:
http://inventwithpython.com/

Learn c++ as a second language. it’s quite complicated and not really as necessary to learn since many engines use other languages now.

Thanks for the tip :) Downloading the ebook.

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vrnunes 102 Apr 12, 2011 at 19:19

OK, my first participation in this thread sounds quite arrogant, I guess. But the point I tried to show was that without any effort, I don’t believe any of us (including me) are going to make a MMO (RPG or not).

One of the characteristics of a good developer (not only programmer) is the ability of researching. Deep researching. A good developer usually spend a lot of the time reading, searching and asking correct questions.

So, when someone comes asking “which engine?” it is clear that he/she didn’t search|read the forum. There are a lot of these questions already answered many times.

Anyway, I’m not the site owner, nor a moderator to decide what can and what can not be asked here. =)

To the topic, you have some good options, like “big world” and “hero engine”. IIRC both now have indie licenses.

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alphadog 101 Apr 13, 2011 at 12:25

What is your ultimate goal? Just to make a one-off, become an indie, or a “cog in the machine” making AAA titles?

Given that the sum total of your experience is small VB apps, maybe you should consider making a standalone game, then a multiplayer one (maybe using Unity), lastly going to an MMO.

BTW, there’s a reason why there isn’t a good, ready-to-use kit for MMOs… Think about it. It’s like asking for a ready-to-use kit to run a Fortune 500…

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momondo 101 Apr 14, 2011 at 08:32

@alphadog

What is your ultimate goal? Just to make a one-off, become an indie, or a “cog in the machine” making AAA titles?

Given that the sum total of your experience is small VB apps, maybe you should consider making a standalone game, then a multiplayer one (maybe using Unity), lastly going to an MMO.

BTW, there’s a reason why there isn’t a good, ready-to-use kit for MMOs… Think about it. It’s like asking for a ready-to-use kit to run a Fortune 500…

Before i explain, i want to say, that this may sound ridiculous, but its what im going for, and no matter how much you flame, it wont mean anything..
I am only 14. and i spend my entire day, trying to figure out, what i need to learn to become a Game Designer in the future.. I am really weak when it comes to schools, so my School work really belongs to 10-year olds..(Thats Math and Geography and such) English is the only subject that im good at.. Lets just cut to the case, i am hoping for a professional career as a Game Designer, but i dont know what i need to learn, and because of my problems at school, i want to start learning early, and that way i also spend my time at the PC, for something usefull.
im currently reading about Python, but i am worried about some stuff.
Will Python, C++ and any other coding language, be usefull in the future? My consern is, that after i spend years learning about Pything, and maybe even C++, there will be a better and more usefull language.
But if a game developer could tell me what route to take, it will be great.
About the Visual Basic programs, we are talking really basic applications, like calculator, internet browsers, etc..
Thanks for your time, and hope you can help!

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alphadog 101 Apr 14, 2011 at 13:23

@momondo

Before i explain, i want to say, that this may sound ridiculous, but its what im going for, and no matter how much you flame, it wont mean anything…

a) You need to learn to differentiate a flame from honest advice. Most kids come in here wanting, but not listening, thinking anything that goes against their desires is a “flame”. It isn’t.

:) Nobody told you to never build an MMO. Some of us believe that an MMO is a very, very large undertaking, esp. if you are serious about a career and not a dilettante. I am one of those. Start small, make you inevitable design mistakes on simpler things. Do you learn to swim by jumping in the deep end first? Do you learn to compete in tennis by playing against Agassi first? There is such a thing as biting off more than you can chew…
@momondo

i am hoping for a professional career as a Game Designer, but i dont know what i need to learn, and because of my problems at school, i want to start learning early, and that way i also spend my time at the PC, for something usefull.

It’s great to be 14 and know what you want to do! Most kids don’t.

However, there’s no simple guidebook to becoming a game designer. The short and sweet really is to become a game designer, you must design games… of all sorts. You must understand how rules can clash, what makes a game good or bad, etc. You must focus on math (statistics and game theory primarily) and some social sciences (political science and psychology, primarily), but breadth of experience is very important. Travel, read different styles of books, etc.

BTW, the best book that would give you a global perspective on what it is to be a game designer is Jesse Shell’s book. Also, Fullerton’s is a good read too.
@momondo

Will Python, C++ and any other coding language, be usefull in the future?

Will Python itself be useful in, say, ten years when you are fully into the job market? Unknown. Will learning Python be useful? Of course. It’s been said a million times on this site: a good developer likely has been exposed to multiple languages; it’s knowing the algorithms, and when to use each one, that matters most.

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alphadog 101 Apr 14, 2011 at 13:33

BTW, here’s what I mean by “jumping in at the deep end”.

Compare figure 1, a 2D game, to figure 4, an MMO. And, BTW, most 2D games still sometimes suck, sometimes have bugs, sometimes have design flaws, esp. when it’s your first one.

http://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=971590

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momondo 101 Apr 14, 2011 at 15:55

@alphadog

a) You need to learn to differentiate a flame from honest advice. Most kids come in here wanting, but not listening, thinking anything that goes against their desires is a “flame” It isn’t.
.

What i ment with that was, i dont want people to be like “lol, good luck, kiddo..” and such..
@alphadog

b) Nobody told you to never build an MMO. Some of us believe that an MMO is a very, very large undertaking, esp. if you are serious about a career and not a dilettante. I am one of those. Start small, make you inevitable design mistakes on simpler things. Do you learn to swim by jumping in the deep end first? Do you learn to compete in tennis by playing against Agassi first? There is such a thing as biting off more than you can chew…

I see the point, and i am up for it, but i cant find a way to make a 2D game.. (Thats why i want to start a bit harder, with Python) The only way i can find a way to make a 2D game, is stuff like the Eclipse Origins engine (freemmorpgmaker.com) and Sploder.com.. But they both have the same problem, You dont make a game.. You make a map with their stuff.. Thats like making a Counter Strike: Source map, and say “Yay! I made my own FPS game!”

@alphadog

It’s great to be 14 and know what you want to do! Most kids don’t. However, there’s no simple guidebook to becoming a game designer. The short and sweet really is to become a game designer, you must design games… of all sorts. You must understand how rules can clash, what makes a game good or bad, etc. You must focus on math (statistics and game theory primarily) and some social sciences (political science and psychology, primarily), but breadth of experience is very important. Travel, read different styles of books, etc.

This is not to give up.. But im a 14-year old, who can’t even go to school, how am i supposed to “Travel” (Not sure if your meaning of travel is the same as mine..)
@alphadog

BTW, the best book that would give you a global perspective on what it is to be a game designer is Jesse Shell’s book. Also, Fullerton’s is a good read too.

Thanks alot ;)
@alphadog

Will Python itself be useful in, say, ten years when you are fully into the job market? Unknown. Will learning Python be useful? Of course. It’s been said a million times on this site: a good developer likely has been exposed to multiple languages; it’s knowing the algorithms, and when to use each one, that matters most.

I see, thanks!

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alphadog 101 Apr 14, 2011 at 16:45

@momondo

I see the point, and i am up for it, but i cant find a way to make a 2D game…

Well, IMO, you certainly don’t want to spend your precious resource of time on learning how to architect and implement a (2D/3D) game engine so that you can then learn what you really want to learn, which is how to design a (2D/3D) game. Get a 2D engine with a big community to help you, like Torque2D, SDL, etc. Some offer more, others are a little more bare-bones, but none will make you start at ground zero.

The art of game design is how to create an engaging experience, not how to build a great technology stack.

BTW, history is littered with awesome 2D RPGs with complex rules, rich background, different economies, and other elements of interest to a game designer: the Ultima series, Baldur’s Gate series, Wizardy, etc… As a budding game designer, it would pay to be aware of what has come before. Then, maybe make a 2D remake?
@momondo

But im a 14-year old, who can’t even go to school, how am i supposed to “Travel” (Not sure if your meaning of travel is the same as mine…

Why can’t you go to school? At any rate, not to say school is irrelevant, but the game industry puts less emphasis on diplomas and certifications than most other software development industries. Much like gamers want to try out demos before they buy, employers want to see portfolios and proof of competence more than anything else.

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momondo 101 Apr 14, 2011 at 16:55

@alphadog

Why can’t you go to school? At any rate, not to say school is irrelevant, but the game industry puts less emphasis on diplomas and certifications than most other software development industries. Much like gamers want to try out demos before they buy, employers want to see portfolios and proof of competence more than anything else.

I have some serious syndromes, and there is no schools that can work with that (atleast in denmark).. However im starting in a special school next year. That will be my first day at school in years… That why i suck at almost every subject at school.
“the game industry puts less emphasis on diplomas and certifications than most other software development industries” Thats only a good thing in my case…

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Rofar 101 Apr 15, 2011 at 16:09

I think you should seriously consider focusing on school first and foremost.
Beyond that, from what it sounds like you want to do, what is wrong with Realm Crafter Standard graphics? No, the engine does not contain a next gen renderer. But you said you just wanted to play around, have fun, and learn. Also, not sure if you know this or not but sometime in the not too distant future, there will be a free version of Realm Crafter Standard available. There is also Realm Crafter Pro that has a much better renderer but that will cost some money.
I’m not aware of any other Game Engine/Builder (MMO type) that would not require much more programming knowledge to even play around with.

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momondo 101 Apr 15, 2011 at 19:14

@Rofar

I think you should seriously consider focusing on school first and foremost.
Beyond that, from what it sounds like you want to do, what is wrong with Realm Crafter Standard graphics? No, the engine does not contain a next gen renderer. But you said you just wanted to play around, have fun, and learn. Also, not sure if you know this or not but sometime in the not too distant future, there will be a free version of Realm Crafter Standard available. There is also Realm Crafter Pro that has a much better renderer but that will cost some money.
I’m not aware of any other Game Engine/Builder (MMO type) that would not require much more programming knowledge to even play around with.

I just told you that no schools in denmark can work with my syndromes, so its not possible, even if i would. (which i do)
Yes, i only want to play around, have fun, and learn. But as i said, Realmcrafter got no support, and atm, there is only a demo version, that works for 10-days. What can you do in 10 days? When you learned how to use the features, the 10-days expired.

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TheNut 179 Apr 15, 2011 at 21:55

@”momondo”

so my School work really belongs to 10-year olds..(Thats Math and Geography and such)

I don’t fully understand your situation, but I will say math is a fundamental requirement in video games. It’s not something you can shy away from for long. Math was not my strong subject in school either. In fact, it wasn’t until I started working with OpenGL that I had a desire to learn more in my algebra class. I could actually make sense out of it all whereas everyone else was like “when the hell am I ever going to need this?”, hah.

One engine often overlooked is Blender. It’s a 3D modeling package and game engine with real time physics (using Bullet) in one nice little package. You use Python to script game logic, add movement, interact with the scene, etc. I don’t think you will find any editor that compares to the tight integration you will get with Blender. Check out some Blender games here.

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rouncer 103 Apr 16, 2011 at 02:17

If I were you I wouldnt listen to anyone, learn c, get the direct x sdk and thats all youll need for your first 10 years. then after that youll be a pro and youll write your own god damn engine.

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alphadog 101 Apr 16, 2011 at 14:54

@rouncer

If I were you I wouldnt listen to anyone…

Including you? :)

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fireside 141 Apr 16, 2011 at 20:56

I think the jury’s out on rouncer’s advice (even aside from alphadog’s logic point) until he actually finishes a project. I can see potential there, but I don’t think I could say there’s an advantage to doing it that way without anything being finished. The time frame given is probably about right, though. It would probably take a year or two to learn an engine well, but about 10 to write one. There is a lot of middleware around for c++ engines, though, so I don’t know, but that’s like using a lot of smaller engines. With physics, terrain, character motion, etc, it’s kind of getting beyond one person anymore.

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rouncer 103 Apr 17, 2011 at 02:04

@alphadog

Including you? :)

No I listen sometimes, just I use my own brain too. Personally im on my 11th year programming for windows and direct x, I feel ive accomplished alot, but yeh… no game yet. Maybe this year? I might be wrong, but, I really think using an engine limits you and is superfluous to a small game anyway.

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TheNut 179 Apr 17, 2011 at 03:26

@fireside

it’s kind of getting beyond one person anymore

I think its been like that for a couple years now, probably since SM 2.0 was announced things started to explode.
@rouncer

I really think using an engine limits you

Depends how you look at it. Engines catered for a specific genre are obviously limited. A framework however is vital if you want to develop in a reasonable time span. Having a foundation to build your games on goes a long way to save you time, so choosing an open-ended engine that you will grow with would be extremely beneficial down the road.

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alphadog 101 Apr 17, 2011 at 14:46

@rouncer

I really think using an engine limits you

Depends on the engine. If I grab OGRE, Havok, RakNet, etc. I get complete best-of-breed stack that, with some elbow grease, integrate into something that doesn’t limit me at all. And, if it somehow does (I’m hard-pressed to see how in any but edge cases), then hopefully I’ve integrated to interfaces, meaning I can pull out the item and swap in another in many cases.

Instead, you recommend building a renderer, a scene manager, an animator, a networking stack, a physics engine, an input/output manager, an audio stack, etc. Integrate each piece. Validate it for security and stability. And then you build a game?
@rouncer

and is superfluous to a small game anyway.

How small is “small”?