Best Education for Game Development?

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dmpayton 101 Jan 14, 2007 at 08:30

I am a (self taught) web developer by trade, and I’m currently attending a community college and working towards a degree in CS.

I graduated High School in June 2005. I’ve been attending college classes since my senior year and, due to lack of being able to decide on a major (spent a year as Undeclared and a year as Graphic Design), I’m only just starting down the path of a degree in CS.

Over the past 6 years I have become proficient in a number of (mostly web) languages. I love programming, and I’d love to be a game programmer. Recently I’ve even begun my own game project, written in Python and using Panda3D for the graphics engine.

My problem is this: I’m sick of school! I want to break into the industry as soon as possible, but I’m unsure of what to do. I’ve heard a lot of good (and some bad) about game development schools such as Digipen and Full Sail. Full Sail especially interests me with it’s intensive but (comparatively) short curriculum of 21 months.

However, before attending Full Sail, I want a broader foundation in CS. As I said I’m pretty much all self taught at the moment. My current plan is to obtain my Associate Degree in CS and head to Florida for Full Sail.

So I’d like some advice…

Would a degree from Full Sail be enough to help land a job? What if it’s coupled with an AS in CS? Does the fact that I take interest in Game Development in my personal time count for anything? Or should I just scrap it all and go to a traditional 4-year university for a BS in CS, even though that will take longer (and cost more money) than my current track?

Help!

Thanks,
–Derek

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Sol_HSA 119 Jan 14, 2007 at 08:48

Generally speaking, game degrees are considered as junk. I’m not sure whether this is still true in the game industry, but think of it this way:

If you find that you don’t want to work on games, would a ‘game degree’ help you land any other kind of job?

A degree in CS, along with a portfolio of a couple of finished small games is most likely much better ticket to the game industry than a game degree.

ymmv.

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dmpayton 101 Jan 14, 2007 at 08:56

@Sol_HSA

If you find that you don’t want to work on games, would a ‘game degree’ help you land any other kind of job? A degree in CS, along with a portfolio of a couple of finished small games is most likely much better ticket to the game industry than a game degree.

I’ve heard that said before, which is why I was planning on getting, bare minimum, an Associate (2-year) Degree in CS before heading to Full Sail. That way I can still say that I have a proper foundation in CS.

Edit: To give a bit more information about the two-year degree I’m looking at, this is the class list/curriculum for the degree. A bunch of CS and few GE.

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SamuraiCrow 101 Jan 15, 2007 at 03:52

Computer Information Systems/Computer Information Science is NOT the same thing as Computer Science (at least here in the U.S.) you need a lot more math to get a Computer Science major. I made the mistake you are making by getting a two-year degree in Electronic Engineering Technology and then not being able to get a “foot in the door” in the industry. Now I’m 32 and back in college getting the 4 year degree in Comp Sci that I should have gotten to start with. And worst of all, only 2 gen-ed classes transferred to my 4-year degree, everything else just counted as 16 credits (4 classes worth) of gen-ed electives.

In the computer job market you’ll need a 4-year degree in Computer Science if you want a sufficiently good fall-back to rest upon. A two-year degree is generally a waste of time and money.

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TheNut 179 Jan 15, 2007 at 20:06

What matters is the certificate, not the years spent =) Every job interview I had I always brought it in with me. They thought of me weird, but I sure showed them in fine print :lol:

Odds are you will have no video game development courses at your school. I had a 3d graphics course as an elective in my fourth year, but it was a total wash. Do what you must to get that certificate, but work on your video game development on the side. Use the programming knowledge and obsolete data structures they’ll teach you in class to help you through.

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Reedbeta 167 Jan 15, 2007 at 21:39

Obsolete? Last I heard, stacks, queues, trees and hashtables weren’t exactly obsolete… B)

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TheNut 179 Jan 15, 2007 at 22:03

Toyota is not an obsolete company, but a 1990 corolla is ;)

Point is, in each of those fields you mentioned there are dozens of ways to do them, some better than most and most not even worth the effort. At school, or at least my school, they tend to explain the easy ones and leave the harder ones (the ones that actually matter) for you to learn on your own. I call them obsolete because I wouldn’t dare touch a bubble sort algorithm when I clearly know how to use a quick sort or merge sort.

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eddie 101 Jan 15, 2007 at 22:32

Well, school is all about foundation. And it’s important you have that. If you *don’t* have a foundation through school, you damned well better have one elsewhere.

I’ve known a handful of guys who don’t have anything past highschool education and they are some damned smart coders – but they have a portfolio of stuff they did before joining the industry that puts some to shame. That, and they are the exception.

So, to the OP: education definitely can’t hurt. And if you have education AND a mass of code/examples/etc that prove you’re great at game programming, you’ll be heads and shoulders above the competition.

(For the record: I only have two years of post secondary, through www.sait.ab.ca’s “Computer Technology” program).

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dave_ 101 Jan 15, 2007 at 23:29

Don’t get a games degree, they aren’t worth that much, even in the games industry. Portfolio is worth more.

You’ll also be limiting your choices if you want to leave the games industry. Although it may seem a long time off, you’ll probably end up with a wife and kids and your priorities will change!

Bubble sort is not obselete, its just never been good.

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dmpayton 101 Jan 16, 2007 at 00:42

@SamuraiCrow: Ouch! I’m sorry to hear about that, and your situation is something I’ve thought about before. Full Sail’s degree, while a fully accredited Bachelor of Science, won’t transfer to very many other school. It does somewhat limit my options if I ever want to earn my Masters, unless FS starts a Masters program (which I’ve heard they’re looking at). Also, yes, CIS is different from CS, mainly in the area of the level of math required. To compensate for this I do plan on exceeding the math requirements for the AS.

@TheNut: My current college (where I plan to earn my AS) does not offer any game dev or 3D design courses. I’m already working on my own game project using Panda3D for graphics and the game logic in Python.

@eddie: The purpose of my AS would be to give me a general foundation in the area, then attend Full Sail for a more specialized BS. I want the AS specifically for the foundation, so that I can say that I have more experience than just making games.

Edit:
@dave_: A portfolio is worth more than a degree in almost every profession. I’m not looking at the weight of the degree, necessarily, so much as the tools it will give me to build my portfolio. Yes, priorities do change (my girlfriend and I will be married before moving to Florida), but assuming I’m able to make a living why would I need to change careers?

Thank you to all who replied! :)

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Sol_HSA 119 Jan 16, 2007 at 07:07

Any kind of school can be a great springboard for doing portfolio material for the game industry.

I don’t have a degree apart from highschool, and I’ve been programming for living for about ten years now. A couple years ago I started studying towards a banchelor degree in the evenings, and it’s been very rewarding.

Generally speaking, most courses that we have (except for those that are ‘pure’ science like physics and math) have some kind of open-ended “project”, with a couple boring examples of what kind of project it could be. Me, I mostly made small games. And the teachers are astonished.

Of course I have to admit that some of the projects have been a total overkill. For instance, our SQL course had a project in which you should
a) think up ‘something’
b) design a database of 3-4 tables
c) insert some data to said database
..
I felt that was a bit too boring, so I ended up with http://iki.fi/sol/galaxql.html

=)

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eddie 101 Jan 16, 2007 at 07:34

Hah! I remember using GalaXQL to teach a brain-dead boss of mine how to use SQL.

Good ol’ memories. Pleasure to meet you, Sol. ;)

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EvilSmile 101 Jan 16, 2007 at 11:50

Get a CS degree from a good University.

At the moment, it seems like the best thing to do until the gamedev courses gain some respect. Also an all round CS knowledge base is a good thing to have, to be a good developer (on the programming side of things).

Also, it’ll be fun. You’ll come across some smart people and can do cool stuff.

I spent most of my university life playing games and spent a bit of the last half of it in some game development and graphics related stuff and landed up working in the industry.

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dmpayton 101 Jan 16, 2007 at 14:44

@Sol_HSA: I’m planning on writing a few game-related projects for my classes, if only for the conceptual knowledge I’ll gain from it. How close are you to earning your BS? That GalaXQL program looks pretty neat. I’m definitely going to check it out when I get a free moment!

@EvilSmile: I’d really love to earn a BS in Comp Sci but, as stated in my first post, I”m growing tired of school. Obtaining my AS in CIS and a BS in Game Dev from Full Sail will get me out of school more than a full year earlier than if I went through traditional university. If it turns out that I really do need a BS in CS from a traditional 4-year, then I can always go back and earn it after having had a break from school.

It’s not so much a matter of “What education should I get for Game Dev?” so much as “Will this education help me land a job in the industry?”.

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eddie 101 Jan 16, 2007 at 16:34

Seriously man, my best advice I can give you is: tough it out.

Four, five years of your life is nothing compared to the rest of your life in industry, if that’s what you choose. Also, you’re going to have to learn to deal with stuff you’re sick of, even *in* industry. You might as well get used to it at school, so you know how to deal with the stuff that bothers you at work.

Also, school gives you a good leisurely amount of time to learn, by comparison to work where (at least in gaming) you’re generally full throttle and can’t “pick it up as you go” without killing yourself.

Anyhow, I’m sure my advice will be disregarded – heck, even I did and I went for a two year program. That said, I do regret it in a way - I would’ve had a much better background in things and I wouldn’t have to be making up for it now.

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dave_ 101 Jan 16, 2007 at 17:00

@dmpayton

(my girlfriend and I will be married before moving to Florida), but assuming I’m able to make a living why would I need to change careers?

How many games companies are there in Florida? It’s not unheard of for games companies to go bust, in fact it’s pretty common. Probably not many. You can be sure that there are plenty of software companies.

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dmpayton 101 Jan 17, 2007 at 00:15

@eddie: I realize that in the industry I will have to deal with things I’m sick of, but it’s like that in any industry. I already do it on a regular basis at my current job. However, if I can avoid it, I will.

The way I’m sort of looking at it is this: I’m at point A, I want to get to point B, and I have two paths in front of me. Path 1 requires I take additional time in school, and potentially pay more money, to earn a BS in CS at a four-year. Path 2 will take less time and, perhaps, less money while still giving me the basic foundation in C(I)S (AS) and an apparently solid foundation in Game Dev (BS at Full Sail).

I realize that I may be making wrong assumptions here, so please correct me if I’m wrong. I realize CS != CIS, but if coupled with higher math courses, wouldn’t an AS in CIS give me a solid foundation? Especially looking at the required courses, how many 2-year programs require a course in Assembly?

In addition, no advice is going disregarded. I asked my question here because DevMaster’s userbase seems to be made of more professionals working in the game industry, as opposed to other sites that are amateurs who take an interest in game dev on the side of their 9-5 job.

@dave_: It’s not that there are a lot of game companies in Florida, that’s just where Full Sail is. When I graduate, chances are we’ll be moving back to CA depending on my job opportunities.

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eddie 101 Jan 17, 2007 at 00:20

Another thing you might want to do is contact some people at the companies you’re trying to get work in. If you know you want to work for XYZ, or there’s only a few companies available in your area, contact them and ask them about your plan, or what they hire based on.

It sounds like you’ve got a good head on your shoulders- just make sure if you don’t do a CS degree with decent notable studies in gaming-style-courses (graphics, networking, AI, etc), that you make up for it with projects on the side.

I still heartily recommend the CS degree, particularly if you’ve just graduated. (Plus, college/University is fun. :) )

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Sol_HSA 119 Jan 17, 2007 at 08:49

@dmpayton

@Sol_HSA: I’m planning on writing a few game-related projects for my classes, if only for the conceptual knowledge I’ll gain from it. How close are you to earning your BS? That GalaXQL program looks pretty neat. I’m definitely going to check it out when I get a free moment!

2.5 years done, about a year to go with my pace.

Studying can feel like it’s pointless, and having some work experience can help see that it’s not all completely pointless.. There are several things that I’ve had to learn “the hard way”, seeing that it would have been so much easier to just learn it at school.

Then again, some of the things you have to learn simply aren’t taught in schools..

Related to the projects. If there’s a single thing that all companies look in prospective employees is the capability of finishing projects. And in a way, the school is a project.. =)

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Nick 102 Jan 17, 2007 at 14:25

Don’t stare yourself blind at game development. Lots of people only do it for a couple years even though they expected a longer career. You’d better have other interests and a broader degree when your life takes turns. You won’t regret having a computer science degree, also for getting worthwhile game development jobs.

Bubble sort rocks.

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EvilSmile 101 Jan 17, 2007 at 16:04

The four years at the University were the best four years of my life so far. No doubts about that. I’d recommend again that you seriously consider going to a good University and spend some time there. Once you get into a worklife mode, you’ll always miss the University life and wish that it lasted longer. I miss it and so do many of my friends. We really had a whale of a time those four years…:yes:
@dmpayton

@Sol_HSA: I’m planning on writing a few game-related projects for my classes, if only for the conceptual knowledge I’ll gain from it. How close are you to earning your BS? That GalaXQL program looks pretty neat. I’m definitely going to check it out when I get a free moment!

@EvilSmile: I’d really love to earn a BS in Comp Sci but, as stated in my first post, I”m growing tired of school. Obtaining my AS in CIS and a BS in Game Dev from Full Sail will get me out of school more than a full year earlier than if I went through traditional university. If it turns out that I really do need a BS in CS from a traditional 4-year, then I can always go back and earn it after having had a break from school.

It’s not so much a matter of “What education should I get for Game Dev?” so much as “Will this education help me land a job in the industry?”.

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dmpayton 101 Jan 24, 2007 at 02:25

Sorry it’s been so long since I last replied. Some friends convinced me to get WoW, and I got sucked in. Aside from that, school started up last week, and I’ve been buried in VB.NET, Assembly, Unix, English, and other projects.

@eddie: That’s a great idea, thanks! Unfortunately, Tucson is mostly retirement/immigrant, and there’s not much here in the tech business. I’ll send some emails out to other gaming companies and see what they have to say.

@Sol_HSA: I agree, learning things “the hard way” can be a major pain. If there’s one thing I know, it’s that there’s a lot I don’t know. This reason is why I want the Associates in CIS. It may not be a full four-year, but it’s a start. By the way, good luck in your last year!

@Nick: I don’t feel I’m staring blind at game dev. I have several years experience in web dev, and a the two-year degree will give me a broader foundation than just game dev, should I ever want to get out of the industry.

@EvilSmile: No doubt, college can be fun (parties, girls, beer, girls =)! However, I need to place my education above all of that. Compared to many, I had a deprived childhood. True, it could have been worse (I always had a roof, clothes, and food. Usually.), many people my age never went a Christmas with no presents. I’m the first in my family to go to college, and I want to be able to provide my wife and children (when the time comes) with more than I had growing up.

Sorry for the hastilly written reply. I’m in the middle of my VB.NET class (we’re on break), and time is short.

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Kackurot 101 Feb 04, 2007 at 04:08

Hey, I am a full sail grad, and I got a job in 3 weeks after graduation. I am also a self taught programmer and have done things from DOS programming using Qbasic and x86 assembly to 3d programming with opengl. So I think pretty much all you need is a peace of paper saying you have a diploma in computer science and a knowledge of making games. So it would be good to try to do a lot of personal projects pointing towards what your area of interest is in the game industry. Also it I found that having a full sail degree gives employers a high expectations for your skills cause full sail does nothing but emulate day to day situations in the game industry. So, its just better to get a degree and do game programming stuff on the side.

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Sol_HSA 119 Feb 04, 2007 at 18:01

@Kackurot

Hey, I am a full sail grad, and I got a job in 3 weeks after graduation.

I am also a self taught programmer and have done things from DOS programming using Qbasic and x86 assembly to 3d programming with opengl.

So I think pretty much all you need is a peace of paper saying you have a diploma in computer science and a knowledge of making games.

So it would be good to try to do a lot of personal projects pointing towards what your area of interest is in the game industry.

Also it I found that having a full sail degree gives employers a high expectations for your skills cause full sail does nothing but emulate day to day situations in the game industry.

So, its just better to get a degree and do game programming stuff on the side.

I split your paragraph into several so that it’s easier to follow.

So you’re saying that you got easily hired after graduating from full sail, but also say that you don’t recommend it, because your employer expects too much of you because of the school?

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GroundKeeper 101 Feb 04, 2007 at 22:41

I hear a lot of complaints (no specific target) about the level of difficulty of university courses and to some extent I can agree. There are a lot of tedious course that are more of the sleeper side of things than interesting but as you progress (at least me) I have found that you need to look outside the box to find the interesting course. If you want to learn something new look outside the ordinary patterns. Translating this too courses you need to move your butt out of the CS department and start talking to the interesting people. I have been taking courses from all over the place (resource theory, chaos theory, bioinformatics, genetics, medicalengineering, machine learning, robotics, …) and integrating it with my normal schedule of computer science. It gives greater understanding of mathematics and opens perspectives to programming that otherwise is lost. Don’t blame the universities for your own lack of interest in gathering knowledge. Just start asking questions to the right people and soon you will find yourself at the deep end of the pool.

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dmpayton 101 Feb 06, 2007 at 21:39

@Sol_HSA

So you’re saying that you got easily hired after graduating from full sail, but also say that you don’t recommend it, because your employer expects too much of you because of the school?

That’s pretty much what I’m getting out of it, aswell… o.O

@GroundKeeper: You’re absolutely right, though your advice is hard to follow at the community college level. CC’s scope doesn’t seem to extend to research or other projects. It seems more like a graduated high school to get you the credentials needed for A) further education at a U, or B) vocational skills for a specific industry.

In my case, I’m going A->B: The AAS I’m going for is a (mostly) non-transferable, vocational degree that I’ll be following up on with a BS from Full Sail.

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eorl_young 101 Feb 15, 2007 at 13:31

I m Ankur frm India . I m doing my B.Tech in Elec Science , but I m thorough in C/C++ , Java , Oracle and VB .NET .

Do I hv any chance tht I can enter the gaming industry or should I do a course in fullsail or some other institute.

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SamuraiCrow 101 Feb 15, 2007 at 15:59

It’s hard to get into the gaming industry and the pay isn’t as good as the rest of software development. If you’re good with Oracle, you should be able to make a lot of money as a conventional programmer.

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eddie 101 Feb 15, 2007 at 16:02

I agree with SamuraiCrow on all he said, but allowing you’re devout in getting into GameDev: yes, it’s possible with your background.

When I started I didn’t have much programming skill save some basic C/Java - and even that was mostly at a 2-year college level.

On the other side of the spectrum, a friend of mine graduated Engineering Physics, and he also entered the industry.

It really came down to who you know, or (in my case) how you can make your attributes work for you to get your foot in the door.

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devnull 101 Feb 21, 2007 at 04:18

Personal advice that you can take or leave: If the reason you’re avoiding going to a 4 year college are because you’re impatient to get into the game industry, you’re unlikely to make it in the games industry. If you don’t have the patience and dedication to get a 4-year degree in CS, what makes you think an employer will think you have the patience and dedication to finish a large-scale complex game?

This is not to say that you need a 4 year degree to make it in the games industry as there are lots and lots of people who have done it. I’m just saying that if I were a prospective game employer who was interviewing you and I heard your reasons for not going to a 4-year college, I would pretty much smile and say “thanks for coming, hope you do better in your next interview”.

My advice to you would echo the advice of many others here. Get your degree in computer science. Learn as much linear algebra and math as you can. Know your data structures like the back of your hand (in fact, better - why would anyone care about what the back of your hand looks like?) Write some games in your spare time. Write a game engine for fun. Download Ogre or Torque (or any other large engine) and write a game with it. It doesn’t really matter if you just duplicate an existing game. Just do SOMETHING to write a functioning game. Prove to game companies that you have the ability to start and, way more importantly, finish a project.

In the long run, when you really want to get serious about making a game and breaking into the game industry, what will really make or break the interview isn’t your AS or your CS degree. It won’t be your personality and it certainly won’t be your brilliant game idea. What will get you the job is your passion and dedication to making good games. This will shine through when you show them the games you’ve created or describe some arcane bit of tricky engine code you had to do to overcome some problem.

Nothing will ever substitute for practice. The more code you write and the more games you work on, the more valuable you are to a game company. Honestly, the bit of paper that you get for a degree isn’t that important. What you’ve done with that piece of paper is what counts. Spending 4 years in college simply gives you more time to write games on the side without having to worry about money so much.

Obviously, this is just my own experience (ymmv, etc, etc), but my own route into the game industry had almost nothing to do with my CS degree and everything to do with my code, my game engine, and my passion for making great games.

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eorl_young 101 Feb 23, 2007 at 12:22

@SamuraiCrow

It’s hard to get into the gaming industry and the pay isn’t as good as the rest of software development. If you’re good with Oracle, you should be able to make a lot of money as a conventional programmer.

Well money doesn’t matter to me . Gaming is my passion and I just want to be a game programmer. My question is that is my qualification enough or should I go to some gaming school like digipen………

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dmpayton 101 Mar 18, 2007 at 21:06

Well, an update to my situation…

Due to some happenings in the family, I was forced to make a decision: move to Florida now and go to Full Sail, or move back to my home state of California to earn my BS in Comp Sci…

I want to thank everyone who left their input in this thread.

That said, I’ll be attending California State University, Fresno as soon as I’m done with my GE at COS.

So after all this discussion, I’m going to end up with a BS in CS after all. :)

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Kate 101 Mar 26, 2007 at 23:26

Well, I plan to go to a school called VanArts for their Game Art & Design degree. When I went to the info session, the head admissions councillor said that students often get hired before they even finish the school year.

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dave_ 101 Mar 27, 2007 at 07:43

In life you should always ask yourself why someone is saying something and make sure that they don’t have any other motive. So you can take that comment with a pinch of salt because the councillor was only saying it to get you to go to the university. I wouldnt believe it unless I could see actual statistics. Infact the university I went to did have a survey of how long it took people to find employment.

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GameEngine_Designer 101 Jun 05, 2007 at 14:34

I am 15 years old, I know some students from DigiPen, I hope to get to go to DigiPen and get my Master’s in CS and then my Bachelor’s in Computer Engineering. Although, some people tell me that DigiPen doesn’t get a lot of job oppertunities, I always wanted to know what school does..

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IceBlade 101 Jun 05, 2007 at 20:17

I attend DigiPen, and I can tell you that the jobs fly in here. All you need to do is go to the ArenaNet site and search DigiPen and you will find over a dozen there.

With DigiPen alot of our Artists struggle to find jobs, but the CS students haven’t had a hard time, we have a career day that brings in alot of companies and alot of same day hires, I knwo this year over a dozen students were hired that day by Snowblind Studios and ArenaNet. And we have alot of other that go to Microsoft, Nintendo, Gas Powered Games, etc.

And even out Artists that struggle won’t when the first Bachelor’s degree students graduate this upcoming year. But as a member of the art program myself, DO NOT COME TO DIGIPEN FOR GAME ART, programming and ce are great here, on the art side we don’t really get to do anything game related.

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GameEngine_Designer 101 Jun 06, 2007 at 02:44

@IceBlade

I attend DigiPen, and I can tell you that the jobs fly in here. All you need to do is go to the ArenaNet site and search DigiPen and you will find over a dozen there.

With DigiPen alot of our Artists struggle to find jobs, but the CS students haven’t had a hard time, we have a career day that brings in alot of companies and alot of same day hires, I knwo this year over a dozen students were hired that day by Snowblind Studios and ArenaNet. And we have alot of other that go to Microsoft, Nintendo, Gas Powered Games, etc.

And even out Artists that struggle won’t when the first Bachelor’s degree students graduate this upcoming year. But as a member of the art program myself, DO NOT COME TO DIGIPEN FOR GAME ART, programming and ce are great here, on the art side we don’t really get to do anything game related.

Thanks! I watched the DVD I got in the mail, I love it so much, I hope it doesn’t change so much, I am right now saving up for it with my job, also going to be creating text games in C++ for my portfolio then get into 2D games and maybe 3D before the end of high school, I am also studying like a nut and straight A’s this year, I just got out 2 days ago(Of school). I am going to take my time with programming and wait until the day I honorably walk into DigiPen. Thank you so much for clearing that up for me!

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dave_ 101 Jun 06, 2007 at 09:09

@GameEngine_Designer

I am also studying like a nut and straight A’s this year

If thats the case, why not go to a good (traditional) university instead and keep your options open?

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GameEngine_Designer 101 Jun 06, 2007 at 13:21

@dave_

If thats the case, why not go to a good (traditional) university instead and keep your options open?

What do you mean?

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Reedbeta 167 Jun 06, 2007 at 16:17

He means that while Digipen gives you a degree in “Real-Time Interactive Simulation”, it might be a better use of your time to go to a regular university and get a degree in computer science. This will make you more employable in the wider software industry (which is a good thing since you might not be able to find a gamedev job right out of school), and also give you a better chance to experience university life (which as anyone will tell you can be some of the best years of your life, so you should think carefully before giving them up for Digipen, which is work-filled and grueling by all accounts). Many 4-year universities offer a graphics or game development course, and through independent study and internships you can prepare yourself for the games industry just as well as you could at Digipen.

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IceBlade 101 Jun 07, 2007 at 04:01

oh forgot to mention that. DigiPen doesn’t have college life, we don’t even have dorms. It feels more like a highschool because most of your classes are really small.