52 replies to this topic

[Drago]

So when I buy the Lawmaker I only buy the name of darkroomstudios, or why is it so much more expensive than C4? Are there any features, which the Lawmaker has but the C4 not? Anything else you can tell me? Can I make a RPG or something with C4? I am no programmer, but can I work with this graphical script editor? How is working with this editor? I used 3D Gamestudio and it cost between 100 and 800 €/$... So whats bad on C4?

[Frank Skilton]

Well I don’t own the LawMaker engine so I can’t tell you much about it. From what I can gather, the LawMaker engine takes more of a “modding” approach in the sense that you get the framework for a working fps and simply script whatever else you need. The fact that the source code isn’t included would suggest to me that you’re pretty much stuck making an fps game. If anyone here has licensed the LawMaker engine feel free to correct me.

Who knows why engine X is $5000 and engine Y is only $100. Sometimes it's a case of a difference in quality however this is not the case with C4. A commercial license to C4 will set you back $10, 000 - the independent license is only $200. I would speculate that this is a strategic ploy from the developers of the C4 Engine to ensure a healthy, long lasting future.

The C4 Engine takes a different approach; you receive a generic canvas to work from. The engine provides you with excellent low level systems and you write your own game code. By design, I would say that C4 is the most flexible engine I’ve worked with. You need to know how to code in C++ to effectively use C4, but man isn’t that what game making is all about? Unless you’re happy re-skinning someone else’s game module you’re going to have to be able to code in order to make a game. There are point & click solutions available but they are nowhere near as flexible and the results that can be obtained are mediocre at best.

If you’re not a coder, I can’t see how you’re going to make an RPG in any engine. Scripting will only take you so far.

If you can't code, don't have someone on your team who can code or are unwilling to learn how to code then I couldn't recommend C4 to you.

[Drago]

Oh, I have a team with a few programmer! Okay, I think you helped me very much, but I am not sure... What can I do with this "commercial license"? I want to make my game commercial, must I have this license? Can you say to me anything else (from your experience) about the performance, scripting part, world editor etc. what could be helpfully for me? How many polys can I use in one scene? A very good graphic is very important for me, so maybe the Lawmaker is the better solution... If I really want to make a shooter, would you say "oh, better you buy the Lawmaker" or for a shooter C4 too?

Thank you for your help!

[Frank Skilton]

Regarding licensing:

"From the C4 Website" said:

You only need a professional license if your publisher is a member of the Entertainment Software Association (ESA) or the Entertainment and Leisure Software Publishers Association (ELSPA). Lists of the members of these organizations can be found at the following locations.

Members of the ESA

Members of the ELSPA

So you can self publish your game or publish through any of the independent publishing portals (Garage Games, Reflexive Arcade etc) without needing a commercial license. You only need a commercial license if your publisher is listed in one of the links above.

C4 has superb rendering capabilities IMO. The demo has some clues as to its power however unfortunately it contains programmer art so its graphical prowess may not be as evident as it could be. A new demo is being worked on by an artist so hopefully that will do a better job of showcasing the engine's capabilities.

Lawmaker looks nice too though I have no experience with it so can't comment too much about it.

My advice is to download the C4 demo and try it out for yourself. Evaluate the tools, see the quality of your artwork once you import it into the engine and go from there. Then request an evaluation kit from Darkroom Studios, for the LawMaker engine and start making a comparison.

[Drago]

If the only topic would be the graphics, but the programmer part is important too... LUA (Lawmaker) should be very good, and C4 with C++... I cant say which language is better... Some say that LUA is powerful and flexible, other people say that C++ is the non plus ultra. What can you say to that?

[Frank Skilton]

Well Lua is going to allow for faster development, it just won't run as fast or be as secure. Some C4 users have integrated various scripting languages such as Lua, AngleScript etc however I don't know if there are any official plans for C4 to support a scripting system. I know the authors plan on extending the visual scripting system and including a textual based script system at some stage. I don't think Eric, the lead C4 programmer, wants to box anyone in to a particular scripting language.

[Drago]

So you think C++ is better than LUA (more flexible, powerful etc.). And what is with the ease of use? I think LUA is a little easier than C++, but I dont know exactly... I am still not sure... C4 - Lawmaker, Lawmaker - C4. Or anything else? But I am looking for 3 Months for an Engine and I think C4, Lawmaker and Unigine are the best for me (very good graphics and physics, flexible, powerful, ease of use editors). And what is when I publish my game with a publisher of (for example) activison (is on the list)... Must I buy this professional license for 10.000 $? And how important is this source code? I dont know what it is...

[Reedbeta]

IMHO it's pointless to compare Lua and C++ in terms of flexibility/power/whatnot, since they are designed for entirely different purposes. The comparison should be between an engine with full source code (C4) and an engine that is closed source with scripting (Lawmaker).

C++ is designed to be a systems progamming language like C, so it is geared for high performance and is relatively "close to the metal", while still allowing high-level object-oriented programming.

Lua is a scripting language designed to be embedded into another application, so it is very light-weight and small, easy to learn and write code for, highly dynamic and mutable, but the tradeoff is that performance will not match what is written in C++, although Lua uses bytecode so it is not as if it's as slow as an interpreted language.

You use the right tool for the right job. If you use the Lawmaker engine and write Lua scripts, you'll have an easier time of getting off the ground, but since it's an embedded scripting language you'll have to operate within the limits that the Lawmaker developers have set. Without the C++ source for the engine, you won't be able to get a Lua script to do something the developers didn't decide to make available. Depending on what they made available, this may or may not be a problem. If you use C4 and have all the source code, you'll be able to modify anything in the engine as you see fit. It grants you more flexibility ultimately, but might be harder to work with.

[Drago]

Okay I understood, flexibility or ease of use and graphics... I think ( I believe I will make a ego shooter) for the genre shooter is Lawmaker better, but when I am going to make a new game and that is a RPG, I could get problems with the Lawmaker... I am not sure... I am no programmer, I am an artist and I dont know how good my programmers with C4 or with the lawmaker... Unigine would be the best choice, but its too expensive!

[Reedbeta]

Maybe you should ask your programmers what they think about the engine. And try to find people who have used Lawmaker and ask them how flexible they think it is (i.e. could you make an RPG with it).

[Drago]

1. My programmers dont know anything about these engines. I have to find out what is the best one for our project!
2. I know another team which is working with the lawmaker, but they only use it for a FPS... They cant say me! The pogrammers of this team say that it is very flexible, but LUA is not useful to embed new game features etc. (for example has thelawmaker no refractive effect ;( ), but how objectiv is this opinion ;)

[Reedbeta]

I meant that since your programmers are going to be the ones...well, programming...maybe you should have them look at the features of each engine, post some questions on the engines' forums, and so forth. They will be better able to evaluate each engine from a coding standpoint. You should ask them to form an opinion and then take their opinions into consideration when you make your decision.

[Drago]

I think l have chosen... I will take the Lawmaker, because he has for this price the best rendering features and good editors and ease of use... I will make a FPS, so it will be a good choice. Yes, he has no souce code included and he is not so flexible because the Lawmaker uses LUA, but I ama artist and I only want to make games...

Thank you for your help!

Drago