Me and three more persons has started a little virtual company as we plan on creating fullfledged 3D RPG. As of today we only have lore written down (very good one aswell) and more generally a whole bunch of ideas. However we are starting to look further and could use a little guidance.
The team has a main lore-writer, a potential programmer, a painter (with some digital art skills) and me, (I write lore but my main task is to organise the whole project). With "potential programmer" I mean that he is going to study game programming next semestre since he hasn't got much skill in the area. The artist is also on it's way to study Game art soon.
Now, are we a total bunch of nutcases or do you think this is possible? Well, it doesn't matter what you answer there actually since we believe in ourselves and will not give up very easy.
So, to my question. How should we go from now? None of us know much about programming, so is it there we have to start? We have quite a lot of new ideas regarding the actual game-design and we won't settle with lowgrade graphics, what we aim for is close to revolutionary. Think Project Offset.
Any help is much appreciated, I know there are a lot of guides around there to read but I also know there are a lot of people willing to help, and most of the time a real conversation is better than a guide.
/Bofra
7
Creating a Game...
Started by Bofra, Jun 03 2006 05:50 PM
29 replies to this topic
#2
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Posted 03 June 2006 - 06:52 PM
You're not going to outdo Project Offset if you have no experience in programming or game design. It's as simple as that. It's true that every so often, some talented group comes along and blows everyone else out of the water with an amazing game or engine, but they do not do it on their first try! I really think that you should aim lower for your first game project. By all means, do something that will challenge you, but if you try to create a revolutionary 3D RPG as your first game ever, you are setting yourself up for failure. I am sorry to be blunt, but it is the truth.
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#3
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Posted 03 June 2006 - 07:38 PM
That's the kind of answers I want to hear, sincere and to the point. I do agree that we need to be put down to earth so I thank you for your answer.
How would you (or anyone else) suggest we go forth then? I mean creating a game takes a lot of time and we might not want to use our story for some minor project. And if we aim for lower than our vision we will get less than we wanted. However we don't have intentions on outdoing Offset really, it was merely an illustration of our dreams.
But ok, let's say it's impossible for us to reach out ultimate vision. Where can we start to at least get something that we are proud of without having to spend 30 years developing different lowgrade-games?
We've pretty much outruled the option of us making our own engine, because of our lack of experience, so I'll put it simple for you. What engine do you suggest we start with? It should at least be rather open-ended so that we don't entirely crush our vision.
How would you (or anyone else) suggest we go forth then? I mean creating a game takes a lot of time and we might not want to use our story for some minor project. And if we aim for lower than our vision we will get less than we wanted. However we don't have intentions on outdoing Offset really, it was merely an illustration of our dreams.
But ok, let's say it's impossible for us to reach out ultimate vision. Where can we start to at least get something that we are proud of without having to spend 30 years developing different lowgrade-games?
We've pretty much outruled the option of us making our own engine, because of our lack of experience, so I'll put it simple for you. What engine do you suggest we start with? It should at least be rather open-ended so that we don't entirely crush our vision.
#4
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Posted 03 June 2006 - 09:26 PM
Hoam your skills. Whatever each person is best at, read practice and work work work until you really grok the subject. That is the best way to make a kickass team and a kickass project.
Along the way you can and will make many little demos and neat things, so don't worry that it will be a very long time before your learning bears fruit.
For using an engine, you're a bit premature. To use an engine, you need to understand what it is doing behind the scenes to an extent. You could use a game engine and use modding tools to supply content and new functionality to it. Half Life 2, Doom 3 and many more would fufil this role.
This sortof answers your third paragraph
http://www.devmaster...rting_a_project
Along the way you can and will make many little demos and neat things, so don't worry that it will be a very long time before your learning bears fruit.
For using an engine, you're a bit premature. To use an engine, you need to understand what it is doing behind the scenes to an extent. You could use a game engine and use modding tools to supply content and new functionality to it. Half Life 2, Doom 3 and many more would fufil this role.
This sortof answers your third paragraph
http://www.devmaster...rting_a_project
#5
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Posted 04 June 2006 - 07:45 PM
Most people will say that it's hard to make something like that on your first try. They basically mean insanely difficult.
I disagree. You simply CANNOT do it. Creating a game takes more than just knowing how to program. You have to program games. Personally, I think there's a huge different between application and game programming; both of which need an excise amount of practice/experimentation before any real results show up.
Dude, take it from me. I had written a 75-page design document for a game I so badly wanted to create (and thought I could :P). It had the perfect system, perfect outline, perfect potential.
To this day (2 years later) I have yet to even dream again about making something like this. Although, yes, it took me abuot a year of bullshitting myself into reading every programming book I could find and thinking that soon enough I could make something of that calibre.
Then I finally snapped and realized that I couldn't program a simple tic-tac-toe game.
The point I"m trying to make is that programming games are a work of art. It's like a famous artist making his masterpiece. Do you think he's even come close to it on his first try, if he'd never painted before? He is able to make such beautiful things because 1) he knows what he's doing, and 2) he has the knowledge to do it.
For programming, the process is designing, the coding, then fixing your code, then fixing your code again, then fixing it a hundred times over because you have to make the game actually work and can't showboat one pass-through and have an excellent game. YOu have to take things in chunks. YOu have to realize that there are brick-walls you will run into and will have to spend some time working on how to get around them.
To me, game programming is more logic and experience than anything anyone could teach you in 100 years. You have the C++ syntax, the DirectX and Windows programming interfaces, and the necessary skills of a paint program to learn, and use the rest to create something. You can easily learn how to get good at these things through courses and lessons, but ask yourself, why would it take a game company of several (sometimes 10's of people) years to create something if they're so good at doing it? It's because there's more than just programming. The sense of actual syntax coding and knowing how to code probably takes up 20% of the required skills to make a game, not to mention one of that calibre.
So ask your friend when he's done with his semester to code you a tetris, tic-tac-toe, or even a small 2D RPG if it's possible. Don't go by his: Oh, I know I can do that, why waste time? bullshit, because that's what I had. Sit him down, make him make it, and eventually make him realize that him not being able to fly through a tic-tac-toe game and having to think about each and every step is about 1/1 millionth of the complexity of a full-fledged game.
Oh, and for your engine comment: The engine makes the game. The engine IS the game. If you can't create an engine for yourself, you won't stand a chance at making a game. Engines are there to speed up production times for developers that wish to use existing optimized code for their convenience, not create their game for them.
If you're relying on an engine to make your game for you you're WAY off.
Hope this brought some insight ;P,
Jason
I disagree. You simply CANNOT do it. Creating a game takes more than just knowing how to program. You have to program games. Personally, I think there's a huge different between application and game programming; both of which need an excise amount of practice/experimentation before any real results show up.
Dude, take it from me. I had written a 75-page design document for a game I so badly wanted to create (and thought I could :P). It had the perfect system, perfect outline, perfect potential.
To this day (2 years later) I have yet to even dream again about making something like this. Although, yes, it took me abuot a year of bullshitting myself into reading every programming book I could find and thinking that soon enough I could make something of that calibre.
Then I finally snapped and realized that I couldn't program a simple tic-tac-toe game.
The point I"m trying to make is that programming games are a work of art. It's like a famous artist making his masterpiece. Do you think he's even come close to it on his first try, if he'd never painted before? He is able to make such beautiful things because 1) he knows what he's doing, and 2) he has the knowledge to do it.
For programming, the process is designing, the coding, then fixing your code, then fixing your code again, then fixing it a hundred times over because you have to make the game actually work and can't showboat one pass-through and have an excellent game. YOu have to take things in chunks. YOu have to realize that there are brick-walls you will run into and will have to spend some time working on how to get around them.
To me, game programming is more logic and experience than anything anyone could teach you in 100 years. You have the C++ syntax, the DirectX and Windows programming interfaces, and the necessary skills of a paint program to learn, and use the rest to create something. You can easily learn how to get good at these things through courses and lessons, but ask yourself, why would it take a game company of several (sometimes 10's of people) years to create something if they're so good at doing it? It's because there's more than just programming. The sense of actual syntax coding and knowing how to code probably takes up 20% of the required skills to make a game, not to mention one of that calibre.
So ask your friend when he's done with his semester to code you a tetris, tic-tac-toe, or even a small 2D RPG if it's possible. Don't go by his: Oh, I know I can do that, why waste time? bullshit, because that's what I had. Sit him down, make him make it, and eventually make him realize that him not being able to fly through a tic-tac-toe game and having to think about each and every step is about 1/1 millionth of the complexity of a full-fledged game.
Oh, and for your engine comment: The engine makes the game. The engine IS the game. If you can't create an engine for yourself, you won't stand a chance at making a game. Engines are there to speed up production times for developers that wish to use existing optimized code for their convenience, not create their game for them.
If you're relying on an engine to make your game for you you're WAY off.
Hope this brought some insight ;P,
Jason
#6
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Posted 05 June 2006 - 09:00 PM
Good googlalee moogalee. That Project Offset sure does look nice. Wonder what kind of quad processor machine it's gonna take to run that with all the settings on high?
Anyways, I suggest that instead of making an entire game, you start with the parts, and work on those first. Then, use what you learn, to put those parts into a game. Start with something you like, or have a talent for, first.
Perhaps you're good at designing levels. Give that a try by designing a half life level, or something like that.
Maybe you're a good model maker, or animator. Try making a few models, adn putting them into a game.
Maybe you're good at designing combat systems. There are some programs that will let you simulate your combat system to see if it balances well. You could experiment with those.
Perhaps you've got the chops to make a first rate programmer. Write the code for a simple game like pong, then try something a little harder.
Think of it like writing a novel. First you have to cut your teeth on a few short stories. Later, those short stories will become chapters in a full length novel.
Finally, you might want to play with some game makers. Sure, it's not like coding the whole thing from scratch, but it will give you an idea of how to deal with some of the problems that crop up when making a game.
http://www.mmorpgmaker.com
Anyways, I suggest that instead of making an entire game, you start with the parts, and work on those first. Then, use what you learn, to put those parts into a game. Start with something you like, or have a talent for, first.
Perhaps you're good at designing levels. Give that a try by designing a half life level, or something like that.
Maybe you're a good model maker, or animator. Try making a few models, adn putting them into a game.
Maybe you're good at designing combat systems. There are some programs that will let you simulate your combat system to see if it balances well. You could experiment with those.
Perhaps you've got the chops to make a first rate programmer. Write the code for a simple game like pong, then try something a little harder.
Think of it like writing a novel. First you have to cut your teeth on a few short stories. Later, those short stories will become chapters in a full length novel.
Finally, you might want to play with some game makers. Sure, it's not like coding the whole thing from scratch, but it will give you an idea of how to deal with some of the problems that crop up when making a game.
http://www.mmorpgmaker.com
#7
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Posted 06 June 2006 - 10:21 AM
Bofra said:
So, to my question. How should we go from now? None of us know much about programming, so is it there we have to start? We have quite a lot of new ideas regarding the actual game-design and we won't settle with lowgrade graphics, what we aim for is close to revolutionary. Think Project Offset.
Any help is much appreciated, I know there are a lot of guides around there to read but I also know there are a lot of people willing to help, and most of the time a real conversation is better than a guide.
/Bofra
Any help is much appreciated, I know there are a lot of guides around there to read but I also know there are a lot of people willing to help, and most of the time a real conversation is better than a guide.
/Bofra
The first thing to do now in to make a list of the things you need to progress, and the skills required to achieve them. You can't program, but you may have a story or other ideas. Just get an overview of what you have an have not.
Also, (even though it may take longer) you may want to iterate to your final product and build several prototypes as you go. The prototypes tell you a lot about whether ideas are possible to execute and work out in practice.
I myself like to have a big project to kill some time if I'm bored, so I also started designing and implementing a little game, which is supposed to become a bit like 'total annihilation'. Me and the person I'm doing this with are still in this first phase and we've set up a wiki to organize our thoughts. If you're interested in our project (which is still *very* preliminary), the wiki is at http://hcba.qixis.com .
#8
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Posted 06 June 2006 - 01:05 PM
Ed Mack said:
Hoam your skills.
Not to get off topic but i believe it would be "Hone your skills."
#9
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Posted 06 June 2006 - 04:33 PM
I recommend the Irrlicht Engine http://irrlicht.sourceforge.net/ it looks great and the team is really helpful, if you still have spots open I'd love to join your team, I'm working on my first game like yourself. You really have to stay on task and not get distracted, keep the hype up, even among yourselves with a little coffee late nights and allot of this
WOOT!!!!!
So if your willing to give up lots of time to produce a great game and have lots of fun doing it I recommend you check out the site.
WOOT!!!!!
So if your willing to give up lots of time to produce a great game and have lots of fun doing it I recommend you check out the site.
#10
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Posted 06 June 2006 - 06:03 PM
Just the art alone will take a big chunk of time, even working 50 hours a week at Sega then working most every free hour at home and I still barely kept up with my workload. Now I am wanting to make a game of my own design, and I don't know jack about programming...
I have most of the models finished and the teaser video is about done, I hope to get something in gear as to a playable prototype soon.
By the way, I am an artist. www.shrox.com
I have most of the models finished and the teaser video is about done, I hope to get something in gear as to a playable prototype soon.
By the way, I am an artist. www.shrox.com
#11
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Posted 06 June 2006 - 06:20 PM
Thanks a huge lot for all the replies! Wow, I really didn't expect this quality answers, more like, useless flaming. But none of it came! Thanks!
Ed Mack: We are at full working with that! Thanks for the reply and heads up!
gardon: I appreciate your detailed answer! Even though it kind of lowered my hopes for the project, I learned a lot!
gillvane: Thanks for the advice on working in parts! We kind of implement that already and focus on the areas we are best at, but we also try to learn new things so we can go deeper.
Qlone: The prototypes idea sounds good, thanks!
FullForce: I'll PM you!
shrox: Nice art you got there! I especially like the Enterprise parking at a most pleasant beach ;). I hope you can find a good team to work with, and good luck with your game!
Ed Mack: We are at full working with that! Thanks for the reply and heads up!
gardon: I appreciate your detailed answer! Even though it kind of lowered my hopes for the project, I learned a lot!
gillvane: Thanks for the advice on working in parts! We kind of implement that already and focus on the areas we are best at, but we also try to learn new things so we can go deeper.
Qlone: The prototypes idea sounds good, thanks!
FullForce: I'll PM you!
shrox: Nice art you got there! I especially like the Enterprise parking at a most pleasant beach ;). I hope you can find a good team to work with, and good luck with your game!
#12
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Posted 06 June 2006 - 07:21 PM
Hmm... I definitely need more FullForce in my day...
hi, i'm a signature viruz, plz set me as your signature and help me spread :)
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Posted 07 June 2006 - 04:50 AM
well you got to be on the right road by simply asking question.
if you need a modoler email me.
if you need a modoler email me.
#16
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Posted 08 June 2006 - 04:01 AM
I didn't mean to lower your hopes, I just wanted to make you see the reality. I think it's better to down you at first so you have lowered hopes when getting into it than to decide you're going to make a project and something of that nature wont' happen.
but just go in with an open mind, and be in the "now" phase. Don't know you can do something until you actually do it. Do small pieces at a time.
but just go in with an open mind, and be in the "now" phase. Don't know you can do something until you actually do it. Do small pieces at a time.
#17
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Posted 08 June 2006 - 09:16 AM
munkey_hitman: Thanks, I'll have you in mind.
monjardin: Nice article ;). Those are some really helpful advices!
gardon: I agree with you, getting my hopes down could be a good thing if I work with it. Working in the "now" is essential, thanks!
monjardin: Nice article ;). Those are some really helpful advices!
gardon: I agree with you, getting my hopes down could be a good thing if I work with it. Working in the "now" is essential, thanks!
#18
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Posted 08 June 2006 - 03:29 PM
Quote
If you can't create an engine for yourself, you won't stand a chance at making a game.
o.O
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Posted 08 June 2006 - 04:00 PM
I think he means that if I don't have the knowledge of what's behind a game engine and what it makes it work I can't create a game. Those who uses the engines may do so to shorten their work, but they could create an engine if they wanted to. That's my interpretation atleast :).
#20
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Posted 08 June 2006 - 04:01 PM
Keep your fallacy in your pants! Just because someone uses an engine does not imply that they could not write one.
hi, i'm a signature viruz, plz set me as your signature and help me spread :)
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