20 replies to this topic

[Onikhaosifix]

Background Story[Optional]
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Hello,

I'm a 19 year old who will probably pursue game development as a profession several years from now. I have an online social dilemma here. Yes, I know it sounds stupid and insignificant but I think it is significant.

As some of you professionals might already know communication or socialization is essential to the success of a team working on a game project. Creating a professional quality game is a group effort and all group members should establish some level of friendliness with one another so that working together wouldn't be a pain-staking process.

For years I've been looking for a game development communicate to adapt to and according to my history or rap sheet(hehe) I've had problems with almost all communities I've come into contact with. I know you guys don't give a crap about my past but one of the staff members of gamedev.net has this religious crusade against which stemmed from a simple issue from gamefaqs.com. Their programming community is filled with Linux zealots who pressure beginners to avoid the DirectX API at all cost. I felt that this was awful because they were imposing a very linear, depth-less message onto everyone.

When I came into that community I decided to make a topic about how the DirectX API isn't as poorly designed as version 5 and basically to bust all of the myths regarding microsoft's API. From that day I created that topic Ravuya(who's on the gamedev.net staff) started this ultra-serious religious crusade against me, assembling as many people as he can to bother me on AIM, e-mail, basically harrassment. None of that bother me except for the fact that he had "connects" on the gamedev.net staff to have me banned because one of his friend's sites were hacked and he suspected me.

A later instance of where I wasn't able to get along with fellow game programmers is in #GameDev at irc.efnet.org. I used to visit this place all the time until I was banned without reason by Ghaleon, one of the OPs there. Ghaleon doesn't seem like a sociallly intelligent person to me. He barely speaks properly english and utilizes the haX0r sub-language in his speech which I find quite immature and annoying. Many other people in that same channel utilizes that same speech but to a lighter extent and support my ban. Apparently I was banned because I told him to stop acting like an idiot. He never helps people out. Whenever someone had a programming-related question he would dodge the question and say something like, "RTFM" or "rofflecoptor! google.com :)". Even to the more advance questions.
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Main Part
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My problem is that if I'm unable to get along with my future colleagues at this age then my career in the game development field is more like a conspiracy theory that doesn't make sense rather than a fact that happen(a million apologies for my weird analogy). For some odd reason I'm somehow convinced that these guys are a representation of things to come. Ghaleon is over 23 years of age and works at a professional gamedev firm. His name was on their staff list but the company only made a Shrek game for some console(can't remember).
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What I'm doing in life[Optional but recommended]
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To bring in a feeling of optimism into this topic I'll stay closer to the topic of gamedev and tell you guys what I'm working on.

I've taken a break from game programming to explore the wonderful field of web design. However, I'm still a computer science major. I've acquired Photoshop CS2, ImageReady, FruityLoops Studio 5, Dreamweaver & Flash MX. Lately I've been taking an interest in Leonardo Da Vinci* so I'm taking his approach and have become interesting in various topics.

Thinking about purchasing a keyboard(electrical piano) to compose some music in conjunction with FruityLoops Studio 5. Hopefully to use this music in my websites and future games I'll program.

As for art, I recently drew a still-life of toilet paper :). My printer can't print but it can scan. It doesn't scan pencil drawings too well so I can't submit my artwork to my deviantart account. Because of this I'm also considering purchasing a tablet to use in conjunction with Photoshop CS2 and ImageReady.

I'm currently reading a book on using the Flash program. Unfortunately this book is specifically designed for Flash 8 and I have MX(version 6). I wasn't even aware that Flash 8 came out already. Fortunately though, I have the Dreamweaver MX bible.

Besides web design and stuff I'm browsing the net for scholarships. I'm considering entering this webdesign contest. It might be sort of difficult for me because I am not a car ethusiast despite the fact that I own Gran Turismo 4(I actually think it's a boring game).
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* - Recently Da Vinci has been added to my list of idols which consist of Shigeru Miyamoto, Tupac Shakur, Tetsuya Takahashi, and Kurt Cobain.

Note: I won't apologize for the long post because I am a very descriptive person by nature(my art professor told me this).

[moe]

You describe things quite a bit. None the less I am not sure what you try to reach with this sort of post. Maybe it might be wise to form an actual question instead. To me it sounds more as if you needed to get it of your chest rather than having a problem to solve.

If I got your point right then you mainly have a problem with people reacting immature as well as people flaming you. The only thing witch comes to mind is simply ignore the harassing part and stay on topic. And of course keep your topics related. E.g. this is a programming and gamedev site. So bring in problems related to that. Working in a team might be part of a demo group. But it’s not so much related of actual programming (it’s just a sample I am aware that you posted in the DevMaster Lounge section).

If teamwork is your main concern you could to research in communication and/or psychology that always helps. And keep in mind that age is not a reference for being mature.

[Onikhaosifix]

moe said:

You describe things quite a bit. None the less I am not sure what you try to reach with this sort of post. Maybe it might be wise to form an actual question instead. To me it sounds more as if you needed to get it of your chest rather than having a problem to solve.

If I got your point right then you mainly have a problem with people reacting immature as well as people flaming you. The only thing witch comes to mind is simply ignore the harassing part and stay on topic. And of course keep your topics related. E.g. this is a programming and gamedev site. So bring in problems related to that. Working in a team might be part of a demo group. But it’s not so much related of actual programming (it’s just a sample I am aware that you posted in the DevMaster Lounge section).

If teamwork is your main concern you could to research in communication and/or psychology that always helps. And keep in mind that age is not a reference for being mature.

You're right. I had to get if off my stress :)

[Altair]

I think this is very good "question" and much related to game deving. Many problems in game development are sociological in nature, and I think it was in Peopleware where I read that the author had never seen project failing because of technological reasons but rather due to sociological ones.

First and foremost, don't give up your game deving dream just because you have been unlucky and faced some goon in the internet who happens to also work in game industry. Some developers just steam their frustration in forums/chats, try to boost their egos (particularly if it's their first job) or just gain some respect which they don't get at work. It doesn't mean that people who work in game industry are generally like that though, and in particularly in forums/chats people can get quite irresponsible about what they say (and often say more than they know). Generally when you talk with people face to face they are not quite as indiscreet :yes:

Cheers, Altair

[moe]

I did not mean to imply it is a bad “question”. The problem I see with this is that it’s not really solvable in a forum post. I have seen on several occasions that you can prove a point to someone yet that someone will still disagree. Sometimes people don’t want to change their mind about a topic hence it depends on each person. The best “solution” I can think of is to increase your communication skill (not saying the OP didn’t communicate in a good way). At least this might help to find a way around until you find people witch are “compatible” to work with.

[monjardin]

Get yourself a copy of How to Win Friends & Influence People. You can probably find it in a local used book store. It's like 70 years old, but I highly recommend it.
You may need to get over your own ego, and start thinking about what other people care about. Figure out how to cater to their egos and turn them in you favor.
Would you rather get what you want out of people, or be a 1337 h8x0r who can shutdown a web-site?

[eddie]

Sometimes the best thing to do is to walk away. If they treat you poorly, treating them poorly back won't win you any friends, and it definitely won't make people think you're the victim if you've already sought reprisal.

It's also a valuable life skill. No matter where you go, you'll find people who you won't get along with.

[TheNut]

The best solution is to take a course or two in psychology. Study human behavior and how it works, then you just laugh at everything once you realize you just wasted several months =P

Ok, seriously… The trick is to just be relaxed. There’s no need to prove any points or win any battles. Just let the system ride you. If someone’s hostile, crack a joke to get them to laugh and loosen up. If it doesn’t work, just apologize (apologies are a dime a dozen in this age) and walk.

I think it’s really good that you’re trying out new things. Getting your mind off things to relax is a past-time most people forgo (and shouldn’t!). FL Studio with a Keyboard/MIDI controller is really fun (I used to use it from time to time). If you happen to come up with any good music, feel free to share it =)

[Onikhaosifix]

Apparently, some of you guys got the impression that I'm the one lacking social skill and knowledge and that I'm the one with the problem. It should be noted that I get along with all groups of people: gamers, artists, musicians, politically conscience people(the highly intelligent boring type that reads novels all day), and yes, even homosexuals. But hardcore game programmers is the one group I have a problem with.

My theory is that they're so hardcore at programming at a hobbyist level that they do not go outside much and therefore lack any real social skills or knowledge(I don't consider long AIM conversations as a real social practice; It all depends on how indepth the conversation is).

[eddie]

I don't think anyone is directly saying it's your fault.

But I believe we're all saying something that I've learned as of late; the one thing you can control in a social equation is, well, you.

What else could we tell you? That you should evangelize to game developers how to socialize, in your own image? We could do that, but it would be futile. It should be apparent that it's easier to fix the one person having the issue, then the mass that they're having an issue with.

I honestly don't know if I believe that it's solely game developers that take issue with you, or if it's just a small section thereof. Regardless, the best thing you can do is to better yourself, because you can't make the opposing party better themselves: at least not easily.

[eddie]

Also, this might be a bit pedantic, but what's with your singling out of homosexuals as a group, particularly with your comment, "and yes, even homosexuals."? Perhaps its just me but that seems to imply that they're difficult to "get along with", which I have a hard time understanding.

[monjardin]

I don't think we are saying that you lack social skills. These "hardcore programmers" are different and have to be treated that way. You don't develop highly evolved social skills by doing what it takes to master this stuff. Just ask my wife. :lol:

Also, it would probably be easier for you to read these guys if you didn't have the Internet in the way. You can't read their true emmotions from body language and tone of voice.
For example, I have no idea if baldurk was directing his rebuke at me (since it followed my post) or not. Also, the last sentence of my post could have been misconstrued as an insult or accusation directed at you (which I did not intend it to be).

I think the lesson is to step back and selectively pick your fights. Or better yet, don't get in these arguments in the first place. Trying to convince Linux devotees of the merits of DirectX is a lost cause. It has Microsoft's name on it. That's the "end of the story" in their book. Besides, there are plenty of DriectX resources outside of GameDev.net.

[eddie]

It's interesting. A friend of mine often joke, that programmers are like Psychology 101. Their emotions are *so* plainly visible, and very rarely are they able to conceal them.

Now, this is obviously a stereotypical view, but generally these people are so entertwined with the tech, that they don't have to develop the normal guises people have in political maneouvering and duplicitous behaviour. It makes a good case study, that's for sure.

[monjardin]

Good points eddie. You snuck it in while I was writing mine. :sneaky:
Onikhaosifix: eddie has been a very agreeable guy in my dealings with him here and you've already pissed him off with your gay bashing! :angry:

*** That WAS a joke ***

Now you've snuck in another one. :wallbash:

People seem detached from real world consequences when they chat online. A person wouldn't say a lot of the dastardly things that go around if they risked getting roughed up (or fired, etc.) by the object of there criticism.

[eddie]

Having a hard time keeping up monjardin? ;)

I realize you were joking with the 'pissed me off', but I might as well clarify: I'm not upset, I'm honestly curious why someone would make that distinction in such a manner.

I woulder understand if it was a comment like, "I manage to get along with a great many people, people like X, Y, Z and yes, even troubled teens who don't like to open up.". Perhaps I'm reading too much into the "and yes, even" that he posted, but it seems like he's drawing a large distinction to a group that's probably not personified by this type of behaviour.

Anyhow, I don't mean to make a big deal over it: as I mentioned, I'm mostly curious.

As for your post about consequences: I couldn't agree more. I understand why this happens, however: most people can give way to their angers/intolerance easier when there's not a face to put to it, nor is it someone they have to see ever if they don't want to.

That said, if you're on a game development forum and you want to get into game development professionally, you really should keep your tone civil, I figure... It's a small enough community that you might bump into that someone someday! :)

[monjardin]

I started to continue the homosexual discussion, but I fear that's straying a bit from the topic.

Back to Internet manners:
I used to play a lot of chess online and the people tended to be absurdly competitive, vindictive and insulting. You would be amazed at how shocked people would be when I would give back nothing but kindness. I would appologize for upsetting them (even though I hadn't chatted a single line yet) and ask how I could avoid it in the future. I'd add all sorts of absudly appologetic tripe as well. ;)
Sometimes they would appologize and I like to think I affected a few people. Why get so worked up over something that supposed to be fun?

It seems like all of the people here, that keep posting about getting banned from other sites, have put a whole lot of stress into something that's supposed to be fun: making games as a hobby and fun learning experience. Whether they want to do it professionally or not later on is irrelevant. Why cause all this ruckus? This isn't a team environment at a game studio where you will lose you job and default on your mortgage if things don't go your way. :wacko:

[eddie]

Amen monjardin, Amen. Lets all get along, and put the past behind us.

Game developers and homosexuals alike.

[Onikhaosifix]

eddie said:

Amen monjardin, Amen. Lets all get along, and put the past behind us.

Game developers and homosexuals alike.

lmao. I would agree with that...

[haxorphreak]

Sadly, some people will always be immature. Some will change, but most will remain annoying.
Por ejemplo, there are these two freshmen b****es on my bus. Currently, they haven't found out that at our school, it isn't the norm to talk behind everyone's back and that it isn't cool to be a b****. They also have a liking to the word 'gay', and misuse it accordingly. And when asked "Why/How am I 'gay'?" they reply, "Because you're gay." I swear I want to shoot her.
But alas, these people will always exist to annoy people. And sadly, there is (almost)nothing anyone can do about it. The Best Thing™ is just to avoid them, or report them to whoever.

[.oisyn]

When I was younger and still at school I had quite a flamewar with a professional gamedeveloper on a dutch forum. Now, 4 years later, that very person is my boss