30 replies to this topic

[IceBlade]

I've thought about why there aren't any action rpg MMO games, and I wonder what you guys think. Is it just that it would lag too much? Is it because controls don't translate to a keyboard well? Or is it something else?

I'm personally suprised there isn't one with the sucess of so many action RPGs, Fable, Legend Of Zelda, the Thief Series, etc. I'm personally waiting because i can't stand traditional RPGs (i don't like slashing someone and missing becuase of the invis-dice). Do any of you think that the next gen consoles might try to usher this in with the headset and easy commands of the controller?

[Methulah]

There are some action MMORPGs [eg PlanetSide, D&D Online and others to come. the age of auto attack then wait is coming to an end].

It will be interesting to see what will happen to gaming and MMO gaming as these advances come, however a good MMO with a good system will be well.. good.

[IceBlade]

planetside is really an FPS, and D&D online is still role of the dice (it uses Dungeon and Dragons version 3 rules (might be wrong on the version) so it is not an Action RPG.

I site SUN as the only action RPG i know thats in development by a major studio.

[Methulah]

You are right, PlanetSide is a FPS, but as we have discussed it does have a few RPG elements (please do not let us get into another definition debate =)).

DDO uses 3.5 rules, which address many of the things wrong with v3. However, they want to make it a bit different to other MMORPGs. So there is no autoattack button. I am seeing an almost Morrowindish system, but with actual reason for the first person (ie: doding manually will actually get you to dodge.).

SUN looks to be a fantastic action RPG, there is another one I saw on MMORPG.com an FPS looking futuristic MMO with _great_ graphics. AutoAssualt is worth watching, as it looks action packed!!

This said, there is a gap in the market for an action MMORPG to fill. In the meantime, I will try to find an MMO where the roleplaying servers roleplay. =)

Thanks.

[Lord_Raven]

I honestly, am not very impressed with Auto Assault, especially its graphics, they are alright, but it does not look like a game that i could get into.

[Methulah]

The futuristic one you saw on MMORPG.com was Huxley, unless I am mistaken. It looks to be what Planetside ought to have been.

DDO will make mokery of 3.5, turning it into Diablo MMO in 3D set in Errebon (or whatever). turbine have been pissing me off recently. They got the gameplay system with most MMO potential and made it a hack 'n' slash. Then they got one of the best and deepest fantasy settings (Middle Earth) planned an awesome game, then said that it won't be middle earth made in supreme detail for all you elves and people to live in, it will be a hack 'n' slash that follows the LoTR storyline. Curse you. Now you have the Star Trek license, in what way will you cock that up!!?!

Seriously pisses me off. I want to see a real MMORPG, not some MMOH&S. *whines*

[Lord_Raven]

still breathing?

[Mihail121]

Yes, the problem with the most MMORGPs is exactly the missing RGP part. The best example i can think of is "Knights Online". In this game the only goal is to kill everything that moves and some people might also give you a reward for it :) I would like to see something like Baldurs Gate or Iswind Dale in MMO variant.

[Methulah]

I'm alive. Just.

[Lord_Raven]

I think that more people would be interested in playing games where the whole storyline affects everyone playing the game, no matter where they are, but also, creating new variants for the game itself,somewhat like an RPG, but instead of just having to kill the "bad guys", and the henchmen, many other things throughout the story. I will dwell on this thought, thank you Mihail!

[Methulah]

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I would like to see something like Baldurs Gate or Iswind Dale in MMO variant.

Exactly. How hard can it be, with all those developers pouring millions into games that are basically that same as the next one, except with feature X and set in campaign setting Y.

It is really easy to create a game like Baldurs Gate or even Fallout (except in first person, I get wierded out by playing 3rd person MMO games) in MMO. Heck, Morrowind was perfectly set up for it (minus the network library) and it would have been great.

I don't think there has ever been an MMORPG project that was a true RPG. I am working on one now, but there should be a professional studio who can take the initiative to get in there and make something good.

[Axehilt]

True RPGs
The only "true RPG" that can ever exist in MMORPGs is the small sects of players who take it upon themselves to roleplay within the game's confines. This already happens in current MMORPGs to a minor extent, and you really can't expect it to happen in any greater capacity.

The expectation of a "true RPG" is usually fairly unreasonable to begin with. It brings to mind an actual sort of Dungeon Master human that you're interacting with - someone who can change how the story develops in realtime. I think it's pretty obvious that providing an army of live-human DMs for a MMORPG is not economically viable.

Besides which, most of my actual AD&D sessions were 50% adventure, 50% laughter and BS. I'm sure many of you have seen that classic Dead Ale Wives video ("roll the dice to see if I'm getting drunk!!"), and from my experience it's really not that far off the mark.
(here's the 8-bit version: http://www.i-am-bore...m?link_id=11945)

While I feel Voice Communication would go a long ways towards giving modern MMORPGs more of that "true RPG" feel, there are inevitably players whose expectations will never be fully met. Again, the root of the problem lies in convincing the players themselves of their responsibility to role-play. You're dealing with a massive amont of players, and expecting all of them to act in a manner befitting your personal definition of "true RPG" is going to lead you to disappointment.

Action MMORPGs
Back on topic, perhaps we should ask "Why do you feel World of Warcraft ISN'T an Action MMORPG?"

Combat is fairly fast paced and occurs in realtime. The only main differences between WOW and Diablo 2 (my "definition" of an Action RPG) is the point of view, and the rate you kill monsters. And other MMORPGs already use 3/4ths overhead points of view (Ragnarok Online) or have you kill large groups of enemies at once (City of Heroes).

Don't get me wrong: I still feel MMORPGs are rather slowish and would love to see the frenzied pace of Diablo 2 applied fully to the MMORPG genre. But really, there's not a huge difference between D2 and WOW, aside from pacing.

Baldur's Gate: The MMORPG
Lastly, Mihail121 mentioned seeing MMORPGs like Baldur's Gate. I'm not really sure that's possible.

In terms of graphics, BG's 3/4ths perspective isn't the best for MMORPGs. It's just not as immersive as the 1st/3rd person perspective used in games like WOW. And immersion is a big factor in making a game feel like a role-playing game.

In terms of storyline, solo games have a tremendous advantage because the player is the one hero of the plotline and everything can revolve around him to make him feel like the hero. This is not the case in MMOs.

In MMORPGs no matter how you portray your story, it will have disadvantages that a single player storyline wouldn't have. If you have quests take place in the main game world, your actions lack permanency (ie, the Boss monster you killed respawns 4 minutes later.) If you have quests take place fully inside private instances (Guild Wars), your actions feel less a part of a massive world. If you have epic world-changing storylines (Asheron's Call), then every player ends up feeling totally powerless to affect that main storyline because they play such a small part.

[Methulah]

It is very posible to have thousands and thousands of storylines set up, and players can very easily choose to take one, or even ten. Because the person who did this or that would get the other then there would be people competing to do these "quests."

But the aren't really quests. They are more a bunch of quests linked together, and the completion - or non-completion of them will alter the world. There could be multiple sides to the quest, helping or hindering the antagonist.

Yes, I would like to see it in 1st person view, but IO erally think that good game mechanics will seriously help roleplay. For example, if you were dumped in the up-coming Oblivion (assuming it is similar to Morrowind), with alll the things you can do, then it would seem stupid not to roleplay.

[Xanas]

The best idea I can think of is something that's a variant of the NWN system. I'm pretty sure as said it isn't commercially viable, but the idea of having a set of worlds with ~1000 players and some DMs that are unpaid as well I think is workable. I DMed in NWN myself and developed for the game, and it was a lot of work but it was fun and enjoyable stuff so I liked it. I was more the scripter type but there were a lot of DMs who did more of the in game questing and such which was really great when done well.

While this may not be commercially viable in the large scale and a company may not see it as being the most profitable, I am actually dumb enough to believe you could make some money if you made a quality game. I also think that you could still leave the DMs unpaid and people would still desire to take that kind of position in the game because it's fun in it's own sort of way.

Most MMOs already pay for GMs, they just don't have any effect on the world because they only do customer service, but they could do more if the company desired.

The problem of course is fear of customers not liking some of the changes, etc. Also the fact that DMs may not do as even you as server op would like. They do have a lot of power after all. With some experience in NWN I do believe if you keep the server size limited to around 1000 at any time, your problems could be managed. You would need a good process to select people for DM positions of course, but again I think this is possible.

Now, as for the world itself and ways of making a story. I don't think an RPG needs a single unified story. What it does need is people to care about their characters and their relation to the world. I'm sure that role-playing restrictions would be difficult to enforce, I know the problems of that but again, with the smaller server size, and with the willingness to actually ban people for violations I think you could do very well. Also, I'd always provide people a server where they wouldn't have forced role-play as well so they would only be banned from the RP server if they broke the rules.

I also agree very much with the above poster that mechanics help roleplay. If you put the mechanics in the game people will desire to roleplay, but you need to be smart about how you manage things.

I am currently working with a team for an NWN2 project that we will start when that game is released. I would really love to just make my own game and do it, but obviously starting at a higher level with a scripting language is a lot easier :) In the long run I really hope to do the game and features as well though with a team of people and am teaching myself as much as I can to that end.

Anyway, our goal in NWN2 is to develop systems which will autogenerate quests and events based on roaming NPC AI, etc. Creatures will be setup to takeover areas, fight one another, attack villages, etc. Templates will be created for various quests to be setup over time and varied slightly. DMs will be given tools to interact with the various module systems in order to liven up these basic quests whenever they are on. When they aren't on it should still make for a much more lively game by having a truly evolving world that isn't static. You won't go to an area one day and kill all the goblins only to find them respawned the next. I hated respawn systems and I believe I have a good system worked out that will allow for a more realistic "rehabitation" of areas.

I'm not just looking at this in the area of spawns and quests though. I plan to implement everything in the crafting system in a similar manner. DMs would be able to add new items on the fly that make sense for their quest and leave hints around the world to help the PCs in crafting it.

Of course a lot of work will go into the economy, trying to make something pretty dynamic in that area also that is fairly balanced and doesn't create too much inflation.

Lots and lots of work to be done at the high level anyway, so I'm figuring that it will be great fun doing this and it will be good learning if I am able to make a game of my own down the road.

[Methulah]

Good luck with your project, it sounds very interesting. I would like to states that a lot of people, myself included, would be GMs for MMORPGs, with no pay wanted whatsoever. They could target students that have a few hours a week free and get them to be dungeon masters in their free time. I know a lot of people who would be intersted.

[Axehilt]

Methulah said:

It is very posible to have thousands and thousands of storylines set up, and players can very easily choose to take one, or even ten. Because the person who did this or that would get the other then there would be people competing to do these "quests."

But they aren't really quests. They are more a bunch of quests linked together, and the completion - or non-completion of them will alter the world. There could be multiple sides to the quest, helping or hindering the antagonist.

I never said that thousands of storylines couldn't exist. That's what you have now in WOW and other modern MMORPGs - each quest is essentially a storyline, or part of a storyline.

But I've never seen a game where completion/failure actually affects the game world permanently.

I suppose Shadowbane seemed to be mostly player-run, but I never suffered through enough of the game's abysmally dull PVE to discover if there was enjoyable gameplay past the levelling phase. My impression was that cities were all under player control (and actually built by players, I think?) and changed hands based on PVP wars. And they must've had a good system for divvying up power because there never seemed to be one totally-dominant faction. As for storyline, SB didn't have much storyline to speak of.

Most MMORPGs pay for GMs, but a Customer Service GM and an actual Storytelling GM require completely different skillsets. One person hired specifically for their excellent storytelling skills can write storylines for all of your quests - while the storylines will be static* they will be of consistently high quality for all your players. This is far easier than trying to monitor the quality of an army of Storytelling GMs, especially if they are volunteers.

(* not necessarily linear, just lacking in the flexibility that a live GM would have in adapting the storyline to player actions.)

I would definitely like to see Xanas' system of AI claiming/attacking/defending territories on its own. That's the type of thing I've always wanted to see in MMORPGs.

Autogenerating quests from these invasions might be somewhat difficult to do without being impersonal. Anarchy Online's autogenerated missions were very drab. At least it worked decently, since missions were instanced and tailored to the player's level - and created on-demand.

Xanas will have to solve the issue of creating enough strife in the world to meet with the demands of players - nobody wants to spend their game time waiting around for the Kobolds to attack Augerbrook just so they can get a quest. Also, the more players are in the game world, the more frequent these attacks have to be simply to keep people busy - leading to the possible feeling that players aren't actually accomplishing anything by saving Augerbrook since it'll be attacked by the next spawn in 5 minutes. I would guess that Difficulty Level would be handled similarly to existing MMORPGs - if you're in the level 20-30 zone, only level 20-30 monsters will invade the nearby area.

Constructive criticism aside, I'd love to see a MMORPG that got past what I have coined, "Field of Monsters" gameplay. In other words, games where monsters wander the wilderness like mindless cattle waiting to be killed. It makes the world seem so dead and fake. Xanas' suggested system (where monsters actually move around the world with purpose) is something I would love to see someone do successfully!

[Methulah]

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I never said that thousands of storylines couldn't exist. That's what you have now in WOW and other modern MMORPGs - each quest is essentially a storyline, or part of a storyline.

No, sorry, I meant thousands of storylines of the scope and epicity (word?) of the Baldurs Gate and NWN storylines. They can only be done once and will have a time when the antagonist will complete their plans (for a generic concept) and then they will succeed. Players would be forced to think a little and actually care for their world as something more than just getting XP and gold.

I, for one, wouldn't call a quest that says "kill 25 of X" or "go to person Y and give him/her item Z" that stuff just isn't a storyline. I mean a stroyline along the scopes of a plague taking over a town, and... well.. all NWN fans know what I am talking about.

If we can have this sort of stuff in MMOs, then players will be able to go either way. They are contributing to a stroyline, or fighting against another group of adventurers for the power and glory to be awarded to the person who completes it - or they may take a liking to someone or something, and repel a group of adventurers who are on a "quest" to stop it.

Even the storylines in MMORPGs with storylines like Horizons and World of Warcraft were shallow and static, and left no room for two parties, instead being a collection of "quests" that could be completed multiple times by multiple parties to get the same reward and the same praise from the same NPC. Boring.

I propose that an MMORPG with multiple storylines, with new ones cropping up all the time would help roleplaying. The outcome of the story is variable, depending on who "wins" the "conflict". The outcome changes the world.

I know it is hard, but I for one would be happy to work for free - even for a commercial studio whom I hate *cough* SOE *cough*(not that they would) - scripting and designing these storylines.

[Axehilt]

I'm a bit confused on the "left no room for two parties" thing. Do you mean PVP quests?

Regarding simplistic quests in MMORPGs, I feel that's entirely a matter of presentation.

Think about your favorite novel, NWN, and WOW. Each of their plots can be simplified into a few basic objectives: "kill x monsters", "kill the boss", "escort the vulnerable person(s)", and "deliver thing x" being the most common. From the most fantastic movie you've ever watched to the dullest MMORPG quest you ever slaved through, the actual objectives aren't the issue - the presentation is.

Incidently, multiple towns in WOW are affected by plagues. Just like Diablo 2, WoW has a decent storyline; it's just presented in such a passive, easily-bypassable way that most people think the storyline either sucks or that there's no storyline at all.

For the record, I've played BG1, BG2, and NWN. I suppose the real strength of those games is (aside from the excellent writing) the abundance of options available to the player for interacting with the NPCs. Storylines can end up branching off in multiple directions because of this - something that definitely isn't found in any MMORPG I've played.

Another advantage of NWN is it primarily being a single player game. In fact I think part of my overall "blah" attitude towards NWN stems from the fact that my first few play-throughs were multiplayer, rushing through quests too fast to enjoy the storyline. The other part of my "blah" attitude stems from it using a combat system which was intentionally simplified for tabletop gaming. Since you're not relying on physical dice rolls it only makes sense to fully utilize the PC/console's computing power, by creating a truly deep combat system (WoW, Fallout, and Xenosaga to name a few.)

Guild Wars is definitely the best MMORPG I've played so far in terms of presentation. Unlike most MMORPGs where the story resignates itself to a passive role, Guild Wars thrusts the storyline into the player's face and even makes him part of the cutscenes. Poor voiceacting and questionable plot/script aside, I hope we see more MMORPGs that continue to push the envelope in terms of immersive gameplay.

I think instances are the way of the future for MMORPGs, since they have most of the advantages of solo games (ie a private game designed to make you specifically feel like the hero) and most of the advantages of multiplayer games (friends to play with or against; and the whole social aspect of gaming.) It'll take some pretty fancy ideas to convince me that epic, immersive storyline can be portrayed in an MMORPG without lots of private instancing.

[Xanas]

You make good criticism. I will definetly have to keep a lot of that in mind. Certainly autogenerated quests don't yield themselves to the absolute best presentation and writing. There just isn't a way to have a good story without a human, and you can't get away from the need for a good deal of DM involvement.

As far as the speed of invasions and such that's also a good point. Thinking about it, I can see people causing problems with the system. If I have a level 20 character going through territories where typically level 5 creatures roam and wiping everything out, what do I do? Do I tell them to go away? I mean ideally they'd have something interesting to do at their level also, but what if they just like being powerful and killing low level creatures easily?

Obviously things like that are real issues. I want to make sure there is enough area/towns for things to be happening pretty much all the time. In NWN2 the worlds will be fairly small compared to a full scale MMO and there will be less players. It may not be possible to just increase the scale up to a 1000 player game. Certainly doing that could also change the feel of the game by having change be too fast, such that players do feel powerless.

Presentation is difficult. I like WoW but it is too easy to avoid the quest text there even if it is good. And I even do agree that the Diablo 2 story is not bad really, all things considered. DMs are going to have to be the main solution to presentation, I just don't think there is any way completely around that :) I will try to make more dynamic templates and get as much DM/writer help on writing stories that I think can be replicated and still make sense, but it will be difficult.

Instancing was an interesting idea to me in WoW when I went for that game. I thought it might provide a single player feel but at least in that game it doesn't really. It did for awhile, but once you reach level 60 you redo the same instances over and over and over again, and it's just.. very lackluster at that point. I make a new alt about every time I hit 60 with a character, and people think I'm strange but honestly I like progression and exploration in RPGs and that just dies in WoW when you hit 60.

[Methulah]

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Instancing was an interesting idea to me in WoW when I went for that game. I thought it might provide a single player feel but at least in that game it doesn't really. It did for awhile, but once you reach level 60 you redo the same instances over and over and over again, and it's just.. very lackluster at that point. I make a new alt about every time I hit 60 with a character, and people think I'm strange but honestly I like progression and exploration in RPGs and that just dies in WoW when you hit 60.

Everquest had a good system to overcome that. Alternate Advancement (A.A.) points were getable after you had reached level fifty-two. You can set how much of your XP goes to standard leveling and how much goes to AA points, which can buy you awesome things like extended spells and extra skills. This system was pretty cool.

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Incidently, multiple towns in WOW are affected by plagues. Just like Diablo 2, WoW has a decent storyline; it's just presented in such a passive, easily-bypassable way that most people think the storyline either sucks or that there's no storyline at all.

Yes, but there is no direct influence over the world I did mention WoW aas having a storyline. As long as the storyline takes a backseat, it isn't really there. If you can play a game without being influenced by it, it need not exist really.