48 replies to this topic

[ICantTell]

As the topic says, do you think a MMOFPS (Massively Multiplayer Online First Person Shooter) could be done? I have no plans on making one (seeing as how my programming/artistic skills) haven't yet "bloomed", but I am interested in other peoples thoughts on the subject. I haven't thought to deeply into it, I am still wondering if there would be an RPG element mixed in, but the main focus would of course be the FPS. Comments, ideas, thoughts?

[baldurk]

The lag would be unbearable. Almost all modern MMOs that I'm aware of work on a turn based system. For one, this reduces the amount of data that needs to get sent and received. For another, it means that lag spikes are much less noticable, and make less of an effect on the gameplay.

Besides which, how would you have an "experience" system so that older players are better than newer players? what if a new player joins who is masterful with whatever gun he starts with and can slaughter players who are older? With FPSs it's all about skill, not about time.

Just my thoughts.

[ICantTell]

Like I said, I haven't thought about it that much, but that is a good point about the lag. As for the "experience", I guess it would have to have an rpg quality to it, maybe leveling up your gun, speed, ammo capacity, jump height if applicable, health, stamina, etc.

[Nodlehs]

Planet Side is a first person MMOFPS. And it runs pretty decent. Your objectives are team based, to capture territory from bases and such. Its fun, but after a couple nights of working for hours to gain territory, then log in in the morning to see your team lost it all, is a bit repetitive and defeating.

[Methulah]

PlanetSide is a great version of an MMOFPS (there is even one that begun here at devMASTER DarkFuture.

New MMORPGs are gravitating towards action based combat (eg click to attack). These are D&D Online... WoW etc. The system does have lag spikes, but most of want DSL or higher.

MMOFPS' will be a big part of the MMO scene in the future, and ways to add experience are...
Acurracy. A characters skill with a weapon (where it shoots compared to where (s)he wants it too).
Criticals. Higher skill level = higher chance of hitting a crit.
Wieldable Weapons. This is choice MMO makers have to make. Whether or not allow characters with certain experiance wield certain weapons. This kills realism, yet significantly stops twinks from running rampage. This method could be used to constrain newbies to newbie weapons.

A MMOFPSRPG is possible, but a true MMOFPS would be no fun, as the game needs to have roleplaying elements.

[ICantTell]

Ahh, I was unaware of Planet Side being a MMOFPS, I knew Planet Side existed, but I don't think I ever knew what type of game it was, and I agree that a straight MMOFPS would be quite boring.

[baldurk]

Methulah said:

PlanetSide is a great version of an MMOFPS (there is even one that begun here at devMASTER DarkFuture.

New MMORPGs are gravitating towards action based combat (eg click to attack). These are D&D Online... WoW etc. The system does have lag spikes, but most of want DSL or higher.

MMOFPS' will be a big part of the MMO scene in the future, and ways to add experience are...
Acurracy. A characters skill with a weapon (where it shoots compared to where (s)he wants it too).
Criticals. Higher skill level = higher chance of hitting a crit.
Wieldable Weapons. This is choice MMO makers have to make. Whether or not allow characters with certain experiance wield certain weapons. This kills realism, yet significantly stops twinks from running rampage. This method could be used to constrain newbies to newbie weapons.

A MMOFPSRPG is possible, but a true MMOFPS would be no fun, as the game needs to have roleplaying elements.

That's not really what I'd call an FPS in the spirit of an FPS. Look at Quake 3. That's a classic FPS to my eyes. That means that an MMO which is done from a first-person point of view, but in all other ways isn't an FPS, isn't an MMOFPS :).

For example, look at world of warcraft. I haven't played it, but I'd be surprised if the more times you click, the more damage you do. Or the closer to the enemy's head you click, the more damage you do. It's things like that that I think would qualify an MMO as an MMOFPS. And that's also why I think it's unfeasible.

I haven't played planetside so I can't really comment on it.

I guess I'm just stricter in defining genres than others. A game like tribes wouldn't be an MMOFPS to me, but to others it might - 64 players in the same area is about the same as most MMOs.

[baldurk]

Methulah said:

PlanetSide is a great version of an MMOFPS (there is even one that begun here at devMASTER DarkFuture.

New MMORPGs are gravitating towards action based combat (eg click to attack). These are D&D Online... WoW etc. The system does have lag spikes, but most of want DSL or higher.

MMOFPS' will be a big part of the MMO scene in the future, and ways to add experience are...
Acurracy. A characters skill with a weapon (where it shoots compared to where (s)he wants it too).
Criticals. Higher skill level = higher chance of hitting a crit.
Wieldable Weapons. This is choice MMO makers have to make. Whether or not allow characters with certain experiance wield certain weapons. This kills realism, yet significantly stops twinks from running rampage. This method could be used to constrain newbies to newbie weapons.

A MMOFPSRPG is possible, but a true MMOFPS would be no fun, as the game needs to have roleplaying elements.

Ugh. My browser crashed and ate my reply :/.

That isn't what I'd call an FPS. A game where clicking more often - or the accuracy of clicks - determines the damage done (see quake 3) would be an FPS. Some thing simply done from a first person wouldn't be.

Look at Tribes 2. Was that an MMO? 64 players in the same area fighting certainly sounds MMO-class. I associate MMOs with a longer, continuous gameplay both on a macro and micro level.

Maybe I just define genres too strictly.

[Methulah]

The definition of MMO is debatable, but I wouldn't play an MMOR whose servers cannot support at least 1000 people.

Secondly, the "click auto attack and wait" system of MMORPG play kinda died with WoW and eq2. There will be few other MMOGs to include this style of combat. If we take a look at Turbine (the creators of D&D Online and Middle Earth Online), they are making MMOs with a dynimic combat system, with the more times you click, the more times you attack, and I am not sure, but I think that it has some sort of damage modelling.

However Baldurk, what you say about an MMOFPS not being a MMORPG with a first person view and a gun is true. There can be RPGs with first person views and guns (think Deus Ex). A true MMOFPS would probably get a bit boring (and laggy after a while).

When I think FPS, I think Quake 3, UT, Counterstrike and more on games like that. These are the classic FPS, but I am sure you would agree, it would be nice to see a genre defying title every now and then.

[ICantTell]

When I think MMOFPS(RPG) I think of classic FPS games with a leveling/skill system, in a world, not an arena. :huh:

[baldurk]

Methulah said:

When I think FPS, I think Quake 3, UT, Counterstrike and more on games like that. These are the classic FPS, but I am sure you would agree, it would be nice to see a genre defying title every now and then.

I'd love to see people try, but I'm saying that I don't think they'll manage :D.

Also, sorry for the double post I didn't see that my post actually got through.

[darqSHADOW]

baldurk said:

For example, look at world of warcraft. I haven't played it, but I'd be surprised if the more times you click, the more damage you do. Or the closer to the enemy's head you click, the more damage you do. It's things like that that I think would qualify an MMO as an MMOFPS. And that's also why I think it's unfeasible.

I haven't played planetside so I can't really comment on it.

I'm confused by your replies, but Planetside is a true MMOFPS. It is exactly what you would expect, a bunch of people, attempting to resolve an objective, in First Person Shooter-style play. You run, duck, dodge, and sneak all while under fire from all sorts of other people in the area. There is artillery, tanks, aircraft, and battle commanders. I can't see how you wouldn't classify this as a MMOFPS.

DS

[Methulah]

I understand what you are saying, but planetside isn't a true FPS (MMO or otherwise) because it has a skills system, levelling and a roleplaying system similar to everquest.

However, i think that these games (Planetside, DarkFuture (if it ever happens)) should be called MMOFPSRPGs - just like Deus Ex is an FPSRPG, a blend of both genres.

It would be nice to see more games that are like this, and I am curently trying to assemble a development team for an FPSRPG myself. This is difficult to do while I am spending all my time making design documentation.

I think with FPSRPGs the deciding line is thin indeed, and reading back over my posts in this thread, I have contradicted myself once or twice (read: every post).

I think ()having actually thought this time) that a MMOFPS would be possible, but it would get repetitive if it didn't have a skills system (or equivalant) in which case it would be an MMOFPSRPG.

Like Planetside.

PS: I hear the best class in Planetside is a medic, as you get your own truck and ground to air rocket laucher, it sounds like a fun game.

[KapokWu]

Methulah said:

I understand what you are saying, but planetside isn't a true FPS (MMO or otherwise) because it has a skills system, levelling and a roleplaying system similar to everquest.

Well, those are nuances how you arrange the alphabets... Another game
is Project Entropia, which feels like a FPS (it has hitboxes, and skils
bring more certainty). I would deifne the FPS -like element of a MMORPG
as almost complete freedom of choosing the target of the next shot, and
complete openness of being wounded by nearby entities. Add there obstacles
(you cannot shoot through hills, and other objects) and possibility to heal
or do other transactions in any order (without an action queue) and - well -
I would like to have that in all MMORGS .

The implementation should not be so difficult, e.g. the hitbox movement of
NPCs can be extrapolated on the client side. The FPS -element gives certain
sense of control, players like it and it adds depth to the teamplay.

[Methulah]

One off the things that is apparent with MMOFPSRPGs is that a lot of things would have to be calculated client side. I am thinking all physics, including collision detection, ragdoll and rigid body. Maybe if the netcode just tells the server where and what a player is then the rest can be done client side.

I am no expert on networking so I have no real idea.

[Ed Mack]

Client side lets cheating occur.. it's a hard balance

[Methulah]

Client side would just be for physics and the like, all charatcer information can be stored in database or files (the big debate) which reduces the chance of cheating.

And of course with FPS' there is the chance of cheating like aimbots and wallhacks to occur because it would be a much more action based game, but those sort of things can be offset by a login operation comparing the version on the client to a "pure" client version that is stored on the server, kinda like testing for a patch.

[IceBlade]

Methulah: you are wrong in your analysis of PlanetSide. I'm an old vet of the game, and I played it for a number of seasons.

Planetside is a true MMOFPS, but thats the essential problem. There is no role playing involved, there is no story. You grab a vehicle some guns and you head off to combat. There is no click festing (like EQ and WOW), you shoot and you miss if you have bad aim. Different Weapons do more damage etc.

Your aim doesn't get better when you level up, like a true FPS your skill is all about your ability. Someone could be lvl 24, and if they can't aim, they will still lose to someone who just started.

Planetside uses levels in a way that you now havemore access to different aromorments. Like now i have enough certification points to use a BFR (battleframr robot). But there isn't really "an experience system" because you don't have stats.

Like you stated, the essentail problem with having a true MMOFPS, is that its very boring. Imagine Unreal Tournament where once you've killed everyone you go on to the next base etc, and then the other side comes back and then you get more aid, etc. Its a never ending battle and it makes it boring. An FPS needs to have a story or the ablility to completely anihilate a group, in planetside no matter if one side (New Conglomerate) **this has actually happened** takes over the planet the other sides (Vanu Society and Terran Republic) can and will come back because there is no way to basically stop their spawn points, or the game would end.

P.S: best cert, engineer because you can fix any vehicle (vehicles aren't based on class), and then best weapon cert Anti Vehicluar, gives you access to the Rocket Launcher.

ICantTell: Huxley (in production by Webzen) is trying to create a MMOFPS that retains the fun of a Online FPS and a storymode of one. In it you can get better weapons as your level increases and you can go on instanced missions.

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Personally i don't think an MMOFPS is in production that really captures what you would essentially want from an MMOFPS. You would need to drive an actual story (ala Halo 2) but at the same time bring in alot of team combat (like Unreal 2k3/4) and still have a reason for people to progress through the game (like leveling up), yet you can't have it bring up someone's skills (like high health, auto aim, more power) because now its infringing on the new person who is a better shot but gets killed in a split second because you can take SO much more damage.

It's the essential reason that we keep getting clones where damage is only created through the role of the dice.

I've developed a concept for an MMOFPS that takes care of all those problems, but no one else is really attempting it (we'll have to wait and see with Huxley).
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KapokWu: sure it works, but its soooooooo not fun to aim properly and miss. It's the same as running up clicking on someone point blank swinging your sword, and missing. It just doesn't scream FPS to me

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Methulah: essentially not giving the client much sounds good, but it doesn't work. Planetside does that, and scans everyfile from the game to make sure it hasn't been edited and there are still hackers every now and then who speed hack and find a way to get invinsiblity.

[Methulah]

IceBlade: Thanks for clearing that up about PlanetSide, I have a friends who said it and told me something about medics getting a truck with a ground to air missile launcher at high levels. Anyway, the game apprears to be a true MMOFPS and quite and interesting if not daring concept.

MMOFPS' have a future, but the design has to be ultra careful. There have to be stringant protocols to disallow hacking and a very well designed and balanced combat system to allow skill of the player AND the character to blend together to create a system that takes us away from a 30 year old PnP roleplaying game (as much as I love D&D).

I am very interested in your roleplaying system you have that takes all this into account, as it could have some serious potential. I am a designer for the main part, so I cannot develop it, but I would love to see some documentation of it.

Thanks.

[IceBlade]

I can't talk to much about it, because I'm currently working on implementing it into a game (I'm finishing designing it now, I'm going to start working on it in Torque in a month or two).

But essentially, you have to do several thing.

You need to establish a money system and a liscensing system. I felt that the best idea is to make weapons worth money so skill is more of a factor in bettle.

Yoou can purchase whatever weapon you'd like and use it effectively. But to gain access to some weapons you will need to move up in rank (only works if you are using a military esc, or sci-fi based FPS). This will give players something to strive for, but at the same time not over power them with additional health or anything along those lines.

For vehicles a liscensing system would be created. They would also be money based, but at the same time to be able to drive one effectively you will need to gain a liscense. Now someone without a liscence can drive one, but the steering would be terrible (purposeully) and they would usually careen out of control. Like in real life putting somsone in the pilot seat of an F16. This would all be based on the vehicle, as someone getting into a car would be able to drive it pretty well without a liscense, but getting into a helicopter would surrely crash. Liscensing would be free, but would essentially be a quick tutorial, giving the player the information they need to use each vehicle, and a quick run through to make sure they learned what they needed to know.

Now another problem is the cost of vehicles, weapons, armor, etc. In an online FPS (Unreal, Quake) they have no value other than respawn time. In an MMO you need to give them value but at the same time not raise it to a point where its overboard. Essentually you would have to create weapons that through (possibly factions) are free, maybe a lowleel assault rifle and a hand gun, and then make all other weapons cost based. It makes the player value their fe ala Everquest, but also relatively quickly be able to come back with enough firepower to have fun playing the game.

And most importantly missions and storyline. An MMOFPS needs to find a way to include them both but still incorporate alot of PvP. Essentually a system would have to be built that would allow for missions, but instead of having them instanced they would be triggerable. For instance, if a team breaks into some high security building, the faction that owns the building now puts up a mission that is "resecure the building." It would bring in PvP but keep it new and fresh.
But at the same time there need to be regularly skeduled missions that are Bot based so if there aren't people activating a mission you can still go and play.
Also the system would need to have full support for large scale battling. This would allow players to roam anywhere, and start large scale battles. Maybe a whole clan decides they aren't going to do a mission, instead they want to storm another clan's base and take everything they have. They would be able to do that, and the other clan would be able to fight them off, with people who are part of that clan's in game faction (in planetside that would be the clan (outfit) of the 666th Devil Dogs going to attack, but other members of there faction (the New Conglomerate) come to their aid.

You would gain a paycheck, instead of experience points that would allow you to purchase more things, a base, better weapons, maybe Bot Bodyguards. Experience would be awarded but it could be based on the role you take in battle, if you are healing everyone, you are awarded a medal towards being a Medic and thus gain access to purchasing better medical supplies.

Lastly, you can essentually have players just playing in a big world with not much of a storyline, deciding what they want to do and when they want to do it, but the developers would need to institute events to keep the game play fresh. ex. Matrix Online and the quest for Morpheus, where the devs played morpheus and in the game the agents won and they killed him. This would keep the game fresh, and would introduce new content that would keep players happy until the next event of expansion pack.

Sorry I can't think of more right now, because my brain is sorta fried, its late on the East Coast. Enjoy.