16 replies to this topic

[goldblaze]

Hello, my name is goldblaze, I've been reading around for form for a few months now, though only just made a account, reason being is that I'm trying to decide something that I feel is rather important. I'm new to game design, currently in school for game art, this presents two issues, I don't really know much about the field as of yet, and I won't have as much understanding of the programming aspects as a programmer would. Though I am new and not quite ready to make anything quite yet, I feel it would still be a good idea to start coming up with ideas, writing them down and refining them while I learn my field. This still leads to a issue, making a RPG, likely with multiplayer as well, or try to dive right in to the mmo, there are many issues with ether choice, the mmo would take years to make, and many man hours, really hard on a indy team likely just starting out, but many if my ideas seem to want to lead themselves to a mmo, and a mmo, if done right, could be a very long term game that could be enjoyed much longer then a single player. On the other hand, a single player game, even with multiplayer elements, as I understand it, take much less time and effort to make, and therefor could be a good base for a indy team to start out with, but I really don't have any plans for a rpg like that as of yet, now would I have any ideas that could make it unique. I really wish to make a mmorpg, but I am also quite willing to make a single player, finding inspiration from games that would be similar, even if so far, those games have not really been big hits. If anyone has any advise it would be appreciated.

[Reedbeta]

Start with a simpler project. Don't try to do an MMO until you have a lot more experience. Otherwise, you're just setting yourself up to fail.

Think of it this way. If you wanted to be an engineer, would you try to build a space shuttle as your first project? If you wanted to be a mountain climber, would you try to climb Everest first?

[goldblaze]

Well remember, I'm planning on setting this up with a team, as far as I know, in at least the first example, they'll take someone fresh out of college for areospace engineering, but, they don't have that person do it alone, usually have them team up with more experienced people. Another argument I could make for MMO is the fact that it's much easier to make indy games as a whole these days. Though, I can also easily see your point, a single player game would be much easier, depending on the team one gathers, and less cost as a whole. I feel like in ether game I'm likely going to be looking for a programmer with ether some experience, or one crazy/stupid enough to go with my ideas, heh. Also what I'm taking into consideration is risk/reward, mmo has lots of risk, but if it can work out, lots of reward, more so, long term reward, single player games have alot less risk, but also, the game would likely not last much longer then six months to a year, and the funding from that is what I'd have to work with to start off a company too.

Something I'm also wondering is there any game companies that started witha mmo, and the details of how that worked, vs a company that started with single player then moved to mmo games at a later date, if there are any companies like that of course.

[fireside]

There are a huge number of people like you writing down their idea for an MMO. There are a huge number trying to get their team together. We get them coming by here all the time. The odds of any of it getting off the ground are next to nil. If you are actually serious about getting a team together then come up with ideas for an indy game, hardly any of which are MMO's, even a role playing game will probably be too large, but possible. It definitely should not be your first game, with or without a team. Your target market on indy is generally iphone, android, Steam, Big Fish. Look at some of those markets and the games that are made on them. This is if you want to go indy. If you want to work for a game company, it might be a different story but indy experience will probably help you get hired.
As far as game design, starting with a simple game making tool would probably be a good idea because you'll have a little better idea of what's involved. Generally, the first thing people come up with is "I want to do a game that does everything." That's not a good way to learn design at all. You should focus on a simple mechanic and build on it, make the most of it. Artists generally aren't going to want to program, so that's a bit of a problem if you want to work on game design. There's some easier engines and things around, but it still involves programming.
If you are serious at all, then start with a small indy game, or rather, start with a hobby game that could later build to an indy game. If you just want to dream about being a game maker and never actually be one, then start with an MMO.

[goldblaze]

I've read all of this already, and know most of this, there's a reason I don't even want to start making more then the roughest of ideas tell I actually find a programmer, and I'm only going to truely try recruiting once I can demonstrate some skill, as well as commitment to making any sort of game I wish to make, I'm planning on doing this with a animation trailer, I also do not want a game that wants everything, I'm wanting to start of will a simple idea, then, while consulting my partner, start refining and adding ideas to make a proper game, ether being a RPG or a mmo. I'm also reviving lots of mixed signals from lots of people I know already in the game design field, some people say that a mmo is a bad idea, and yet others say that it's doable, or even a better idea then a single player game, and these are all people that have worked in the game design industry, the interesting thing is that at least one that says a mmo is better worked on a company sized mmo before.

I'm not really looking for a discussion like this, as it repeats all that I've read, the main issue is, I am not, nor will I ever attempt to be, a game programmer, I make 3d models and make them move, I'm not even going to make any allusions to the contrary. For ether project to start, I will need to find programmers. I plan on trying to get together a team similar to what's described in the guide right here on the site, aiming for a 10 person team. This does not mean I'm doing a mmo for a fact, the advise I've been getting on single player games leads me to believe it actually takes more people to make that then a mmorpg(mixed singles are the best.), I'm pretty much asking advise on basically, weather someone who basically just wants to make a mmorpg as a end game, would be better off making a rpg, or a mmo, it's sounding more and more like what I'll be wanting to do in ether case is find some funding and just create a company from the get go, again, this will happen if and when I have a way of demonstrating what I want out of the game first.

[goldblaze]

A lot of the issues with me right now, is the fact that I really have no way of finding out things that would allow me to make a final decision, all I am going to really learn at my school, will how to make pixels colored, wrap those pixels around a model that I created, and make that model do a jig, a programmer will understand the latancy issues, the coding involved in ether project, what it any idea that comes out of my head will do to a game, in my mind, the person who programs the game will be the backbone of what ever's created, even more so, the person who I can discuss any ideas I have and refine them into a feasible project. Right now I'm just trying to decide the most feasible thing to work on, as the 3d and concept artist.

[fireside]

The most feasible thing to work on is a small rpg that you sell on Steam or iPhone. Hopefully, you can find an experienced programmer, who has previously done at least one game, that needs an artist. A ten person team will probably blow up since it's hard to get funding. Start small so you don't end up losing too much of your money or someone else's because games are high risk business and MMO's are the highest risk of all since they require the most assets. If you still decide to do an MMO, take a look at the Hero Cloud engine. They take a cut but you would be cutting down significantly on your risk. I don't think it's out yet, but should be soon. Remember that the person that told you an MMO was a good idea worked on one for a company, but did not start one on his own. It's not impossible, you are just increasing your risk of failure and that's a bad idea starting out. An rpg will have the things you need for an MMO aside from networking, so it's a step in the right direction. You can find out if the idea is accepted. Knights of the Old Republic was an RPG a while back and they decided to make it into an MMO. You'll find it's hard enough working with one other person when you try it. It's basically a pain in the neck trying to hammer out who's idea gets used and a large percentage of the time you end up quitting because you are not compatible with the other team member. I just do it as a hobby and have never been able to work with more than one other person. The times I tried it with more, it completely fell apart.

[goldblaze]

Nods.* pretty close to my thoughts really, on the small RPG for steam(I refuse to touch anythign apple, heh.) the 10 person team I'm not sure as at that point it would be volunteer work, any kind of funding I would get would cause me to just go and start a company, but I do think it might be better, if I can find a somewhat eperianced programmer, or a new programmer, and maybe get some help from one of my freinds that does games right now(too busy to help more then maybe advise and such I think.), we'll have to see if I can attact anyone when I game make a game concept/demo trailer, kinda wondering, better to show what I'd make for actual game play, or what I'd make for cut scenes? Or both?

[fireside]

As an artist, it's going to be a little rough showing game play but that would be best. That would mean lower poly characters and special effects doable in real time.

As far as finding a programmer, one thing you might want to try is joining an engine forum and putting up an ad. Essenthel might be a good engine for an rpg. It has a demo on the site.

[goldblaze]

Well I'm thinking of putting it together how a real game trailer would be put together maybe, heh, and I have a idea on how to show it, basicaly use the same tools for a movie baised demo, only with lower poly with a few sp effects, I can't make any kind of game demo, unless I use a engine I think, but I'm hoping a programmer person would understand.

Basically show that I'm willing to take the time and effort to show them something like that to proove that I'm willing to skick with a game.

[tyree]

right now I would say dont try and make a game. because you simply cant. try modding a game for now, and work your way into making the most basic game you possibly can. alone, 2d or 3d doesnt matter, something like pong would be a good starting point. you will grow naturally from that point.

the problem when working with someone lies in them having their own life and problems. reality just may not make it possible for you to work with someone. your better off learning how to program for yourself. as long as you keep it simple its doable

Im speaking as an artist myself but I learned to program first before I did anything art related for games

[alphadog]

An MMO is much more work than a multiplayer game, which is much more work than a single-player game. It's like O(n^2) vs O(n) vs. O(1) stuff.

For starters, the architecture for each type is much different. Layer on the company-level concerns, and you get even more disparity between them. This is site gospel; please don't argue it.

So, can you start from a completely inexperienced and un-pedigreed starting point and end up with a viable MMO? Theoretically, yes. And, there are stories out there of this. But, for every success one can find, I can't imagine the number of failures we can't hear about. Be aware you have picked the hardest road at that point. To use the first analogy in the thread, companies do take aerospace engineering students and put them on the Shuttle project. But, the equivalent to you + MMO is to put an aerospace student in charge of creating Lockheed Martin. Yeah, likely to fail is an understatement.

BTW, the assets and the architecture are parallel concerns, but not the same. You could create great concepts, models, and other works that essentially could be dropped into any of the architectural choices.

Practically-speaking, what you want to do is create a knock-out concept portfolio to excite some programmers to put aside their ideas for their own stuff to work on your idea. (Unless you want to be a small-team indie or be in better control of your destiny, where you'd also want to learn to code properly.) Forget investors and publishers for now, because they won't listen until you get past this step.

The key thing now is to put together a knock-out demo of your concept/world using all your current best skills. You have to excite people to volunteer time they could just as well put wholly to their own personal gain, rather than share it with you.

[rouncer]

I wouldnt say an mmo is impossible, its just a bit of networking - if it was just cute little sprites running around a cute little tilemap id say its very possible, its just then people want things like 2 gig clients and things to store all their environmental and character data, thats what I find a little unbelievable.

So depending on what your game was, goldblaze, is if id believe you or not.

[TheNut]

Quote

single player games have alot less risk, but also, the game would likely not last much longer then six months to a year, and the funding from that is what I'd have to work with to start off a company too.

Perhaps a little encouragement is in order? World of Goo, Terraria, Minecraft, and Limbo are examples of critically successfully single player games developed by 1 or 2 people (although Minecraft and Terraria support co-op multiplayer, it's more of a perk than a need).

If I were you, I would put my art to work. Start pumping out environments, props, rigged characters, the works. You don't need a game demo. If you can't program, don't waste your time pretending. Build up the art, present it on your website, advertise to the world you're working on something (preferably non-mmo if you haven't been convinced already), and dedicate a section asking for help with contact details. It's a sure-fire way to get the ball rolling for you. It's your online business card.


An alternative is to offer your services in the mod community. Artists are few and unskilled there. Your talents would be welcomed by most, but at the same time most mod groups are unprepared for what they are getting themselves involved in (as could you if you're not careful).

[goldblaze]

I've for the most part decided to do a single player game, not all of the reasoning is it's easier, it's also that a artist that I'm good friends with and wants to work with me has a long portfolio making movies, not in games, I'm thinking it would be best to make full use of her acquired skills, while gently introducing her to the way games are made as well(She seems to be unhappy with the movies she's had to work on), basically, I want a semi decent RPG with some nice cut scenes that help tell the story, alot of my inspiration being from old before-2005-games drakengard and drakan: order of the flame and it's squeal. When I finally do get to work on a mmorpg though, I do want to invest time in figuring out if cutscens in a mmorpg is a good/bad idea.(As I say, the issue tends to be that there's no way to tell, right now, what doing one thing with do to another game for me.)

[tyree]

drakan was a good game. drakengard had too much repetition that wasnt enjoyable. repetition is alright when enjoyable, drakan would be doable for a single person. if you do the first five minutes, which is a fight scene with the main character and some enemies

but you will be surprised how much work it takes just for that

[k@lle]

I have not readed all posts in this thread but if you do not now any programming language but still wanna make a game, use an game engine who offer an alternative to programming. Like http://www.yoyogames.com/ or http://www.clickteam.com/eng/mmf2.php, if you do not want to create a 2D game I think you can use http://udk.com/, it offers something called kismet i think. I do not know but I think kismet can replace programing depending on what type of game you gonna make.

Dont plan anything, JUST START. You will encounter problems but instead of being annoyed or rage quiet on them, LEARN FROM THEM INTSTEAD.

Here is a video who made me making games, instead of planning them and discussing them on forums:






Hope this help, and sorry for my bad english.