30 replies to this topic

[mystd]

I'm not a good coder nor a good artist, but I'm full blood gamer. I've started with cga games and I'am still into playing games. I've always dreamed of being a game dev, but I just don't have the endurance needed to be a good coder/artist. It's a steep mountain that I always fail to climb... Because I really like gaming and played hundreds maybe over 1k games (never counted) my standards/claims got higher and I'm really fed up with games nowdays. It's like there is one game a year I can really enjoy playing, most games have lost too much quality. Only games I currently can enjoy are indie games, the rest is just a repetition/remake of old games and lack in every way. Over the years I've testet almost all game making tools out there and they all suck badly. The non coder can make some small shitty games and a good coder does not need it. Luckily I always write down any ideas I have. Until now I kept them for myself because I always hoped I could do the core coding etc., but after I learned java recently and failed to make some simple games again, I thought: Screw it! Go public with at least your Game Making idea, see what the pros think about it and maybe some are interested and will join you. So here it is: http://www.bds-proje...orld/index.html

I'm gratefull for any support even if it's just criticism & ideas. I'm not really good at anything but thinking up games, but if the projects gets some followers I'm willing to invest a lot of time and the money I can spare. Sadly I'm not rich otherwise this idea would be a reality already ^-^

[geon]

Not to discourage you, but the document focuses on (the wrong) details.

You need to define what the project should be at a high level. What about it is fun?

It seems you focus on the fantasy genre (creatures, spells), but you don't state this clearly.

The scope of it all is *very* large. Does it actually need to be multiplatform? Does there have to be multiple toolsets for different skill levels? Would they be integrated (just hiding features not wanted/needed) or separate (separate applications). Would the tools be available from within the game? What features are dependent on others? What features are the most essential? What features are easiest/hardest to implement?

Why would you have a custom object/animation editor for advanced users? They will want to use their own tools (Maya, Z-brush) anyway.

Apart from the idea about mandating a common license for all user created assets, what would set this project apart from a product like Unity?

[mystd]

Thanks for pointing those out, I'll change it asap ^-^
I didn't know unity until now, seems pretty complex.

About your questions:

-My focus on the fantasy genre is only because I like it, it's meant for any kind of game.

-Multiplatform would be best, can't imagine it windows only.

-Well I thought of it more like the features are there but the advanced ones are hidden until the user changes the tool to a different mode or turns them on/off

-Would be nice if the tools would be available ingame but that would depend on the engine. CW is not a game engine, it's a community based game dev environment, where different engines can be used. That's why I put a "translator" module in the picture. That one would translate/convert the CW user made stuff so that it can be used with the different engines.

-The custom object/animation editor is for those that can't use maya/3ds etc.. Of course I want the pros to be able to use thair preferred 3D modeling software.

-About the fun part I don't really get it, if it's easy to use and provides fast results with good quality of course it will be fun ^-^

Just had a quick look at unity, I imagnine CW easier to get into (like playing with lego) of course it has to be complex too. Also CW would be open source of course and thus give the community more freedom because the tools can be changed/modded etc. After some time the complexity of user made content would be very big and probably bigger than any other game dev software, because everyone shares thair work. You also don't have to pay 1.5K for the software since it is free. You can earn money by fullfilling the user requests and I think this feature is very unique and will be the main "selling" point of CW.

edit: I've added to/changed the text, I hope it's clearer now. If not plz tell me.

[mystd]

I've checked unity a bit more now, watched some tuts etc. Unity seems to be a game engine thats somewhat easier to make games for but CW is not meant as engine it's a game dev environment that's so easy to use, that players (not devs) that don't have the time, skill or knowlege can make games too. It's not restricted to beginners only, it's meant to be flexible so beginners and pros can work with it. The good thing is the pros can make scripts/models and the beginners can just use the scripts without having to write them themselfs. Most importantly pros can earn fame and/or money through the request feature. Beginners too can model with the "lego" like editors.

[geon]

So what you want is a development environment for games, that can be used with several diffrent engines? That seems like a bad idea. All engines are different, so you would end up only supporting the lowest common denominator.

By the way, what engines did you have in mind?

"a game dev environment that's so easy to use, that players (not devs) that don't have the time, skill or knowlege can make games too."

This is not a new idea. It has been done for programming languages and tools over and over, usually with horrible results. (basic, cobol, uml) Basically, it is a fools errand.

Making a unique, good looking, fun and well performing game is *hard*. Good tools certainly helps, but it will never be simple. As far as complete, imtegrated, graphical tools goes, Unity is pretty much state of the art.

[mystd]

Well that would depend on the engines and how the translator/converter modules work. I don't have any special engine in mind, they could be build for CW. I know it's not a new idea, but I think CW if thought through well could be the first one that is really usable. I know that making good games is hard, it's way too hard, that's why I've come up with CW, so it'll make it easier. Especially recources are a problem, but with a community where everyone shares thair recources productivity will be boosted a lot. If you make a Model with a 3D modeling software you can use it in a lot of different engines so I don't really see a problem there. Recources can be optimized for the engines. If you make a texture you can always convert it into different formats. You have to see the CW tools as simplistic versions of the tools a game dev normally uses. I agree that Unity is good but it's still too complex for beginners, the first step of the stairs is too high. I always encounter 2 types of game making software those that are very simple but very limited and those that are very complex but hard to get into. I want CW to be both simple but with the flexibility to be very complex.

[alphadog]

mystd said:

I always encounter 2 types of game making software those that are very simple but very limited and those that are very complex but hard to get into. I want CW to be both simple but with the flexibility to be very complex.

I want a hammer, that also functions as a nail gun, that has multiple screwdriver attachments, both the tool and the drink, for my home repairs. It would be great if it could cut steel pipe, but also able to cut gentle bezier curves in balsa wood. It must grind, slice and dice. It must also be easy to use, reliable, perform well and be inexpensive.

Why hasn't anyone built one yet?

[mystd]

Thx for your useless comment @alphadog I expect more from a staff member than trolling around.

It's pretty easy to hide advanced features so beginners use the standard ones first, there are a lot of programms that use this. I understand that u guys are in love with Unity, but it's not for players it's for devs.

[rouncer]

check out 3dcoat, its a voxel modeller, and you can use it like lego (just sticking different premade objects together to make a customized whole entity)

look at the space ship making video "rich primitives" , its really simple and looks great. http://www.3d-coat.com/

really i dont see how programming or art takes skill to do, i think its all easy, it is time consuming tho. :) or am i a genius, i doubt it, if you think you cant do it, your wrong.

but i think you have a lot to learn before you could make or even design anything decent, theres too many pitfalls for a beginner, like im looking back over 12 years experience, so i sorta take it for granted.
im not sure your "block based landscape" is a good idea... maybe if i had a few beers with you and i got to tell you everything i know, maybe i could help you out?

you on windows messenger? look me up rouncer81@hotmail.com.

as far as i see it, 3d modelling shouldnt be any more complicated than making a lego space ship, no shit.

[mystd]

If you have learned something and have experience everything is easy ^-^ It depends on the users skill & time. My aim is very low, I want a 6 year old (or ppl with that mindset) to be able to use those tools. Also CW ist not a software! It is a community platform that offers software.

Don't see it as blocks see it as parts, they are also round etc. It's a good start for users with 0 experience. Also those parts count will grow with the community, because everyone can make them. Lets say someone made a soccer ball and uploaded it, that soccer ball would be available for everyone to use. Kinda like the java library. The main part of CW is the request feature and that content library. The tools are there so beginners are able to do something too. The first thing I'll do will be that request feature anyway because that's the base of the whole project.

Yea I'm using nimbuzz added u ^-^

[geon]

Alphadog was not "trolling around".

You want people without any skills to be able to create games. Won't happen. Get over it.

[mystd]

@geon WRONG, I want to create something that will make game dev easier. I want to create a platform for ppl that don't have the resources or the time to create everything from scratch and it's aimed for beginners & pros. Whats faster using a library full of Models, Animations, Scripts or making them yourself? Also what skill? Modeling? Programming? Someones skill can be to be very creative. If someone like that has a very good idea for a game but not the time/team to make it from scratch it will never happen. With CW those would also have a chance to make thair ideas into games.

If it wasn't trolling what was it? Constructive criticism?

[rouncer]

i dont see you on messenger, you sure you added me right?

[mystd]

Ah sry forgot to add my msn acc, don't really use it. Damn nimbuzz cant reply to you X_X Well you'r shown as offline, perhaps thats why I cant reply. Ahh no it sais awaiting confirmation. Sry just started using nimbuzz some weeks ago. I think you have to add me too perhaps? Screw it I'm installing msn, I don't like it though T_T

[geon]

> Whats faster using a library full of Models, Animations, Scripts or making them yourself?

If you are going to spend the time and work to create a game on your own, would you use generic models, art styles that don't fit together and wade through countless pages of low quality crap to find the few OK assets?

If you want to support any engine, there will be scripts for some engines, and not for others. Scripts will be in different languages, using different APIs. For the user this will just be frustrating.

What *could* work would be a community built around a single engine with a good existing tool set. Focus on one art style (toon, realistic, abstract), one type of game (strategy, FPS, racing, dating sim), and one genre (fantasy, sci-fi, furries).

The big challenge would be to build your community, so you would need to focus. Pick a small niche and build the best possible community there. Expand later.

There is a lot of good advice online on how to build and grow a healthy community. Read up on that. It is also something a non-technical person can do.

[alphadog]

mystd said:

Thx for your useless comment @alphadog I expect more from a staff member than trolling around.

You were insulted by my use of an analogy? I said nothing about you as a person.

mystd said:

It's pretty easy to hide advanced features so beginners use the standard ones first, there are a lot of programms that use this. I understand that u guys are in love with Unity, but it's not for players it's for devs.

It may be easy to hide, but you still have to code it all. It's easy to hide knives in a swiss army knife for a user of the knife, but it is much more complicated and expensive to build than a regular knife.

(Apologies if I insulted you again by continued use of analogies.)

[mystd]

About the generic low quality crap, it's not that hard to implement categories, ratings, sorting functions, searchs and the like. Also it's something that dosn't exist, you can't know if the users upload crap. Art styles can be categorized and it's better to have something you can use than nothing. Sure there won't be scripts for every engine, but thats what the request feature is for. Using only one engine for a "niche" is of course less complex and easier, but that would limit CW drastically and make CW just like every other Game Dev software already out there.

@alphadog yes I was insulted by that exaggeration, you don't need to say something about a person to insult them. I like your swiss army knife analogy much better. I'll just cut off all the tools and make it an recource archive first. The tools aren't the important part anyway, they can come later.

[_NOISEcore]

So you want to create a tool-set / library that holds tools for all kinds of different engines, different types
of games, different styles, etc.. and usable by both unexperienced as experienced persons?
No offense ment, but that's like trying to create a planet with a spoon.

The reason why this hasn't been done before, is not because it's impossible, but because it's next to impossible.
I don't even think that a team of hundreds of programmers would be able to do this.
There's a reason why engines and tool-sets are pointed towards one specific genre or style.
Even though the analogy of alphadog might be quite offensive, it is still true and fits your desire perfectly.

If you have no experience with coding / modeling / designing, set some smaller goals first.
"First try to change your home before you change the world."

[mystd]

So Blender/Maya/3Ds etc. are next to impossible? Is it really written that badly that nobody gets what I've planned? Again the editors are only an easy version of the stuff that is already available and again they aren't even the important part.... To make an analogy with spoons, what I'm trying to do with CW is gathering thousands of ppl with spoons, hundreds with shovels and a couple with excavators.

Editors aside, what do you think of a recource library the way I've imagined it?

[alphadog]

At this point, I am confused by the nebulous definition of your project. Is it an editor like Maya? multiple editors? an online resource site? a wrapper for multiple engines? an MMO? a floor wax? a desert topping? all of the above?

Maybe you could restate your elevator pitch?