34 replies to this topic

[NomadRock]

You advocate using .NET, and then you tell me not to use proprietary shit? That is my whole point.

[davepermen]

you know, proprietary for me is using stuff about noone else has.

and if i check browsing statistics on webservers, well.. Windows, espencially Windows XP, wins.. :D (by a factor of nearly 100.. harrharr).


no, but, seriously. solaris is compatible with opensource from linux, or not really? else, you can get mono, i'd guess.. one day.

[NomadRock]

If you checkout server statistics more are running Apache than windows does this mean that you will never use .NETs server capabilites ie asp, c# server side scripts, etc.

It is not about supporting the one thing that most people use right now, it is about allowing to contiually let people use what is best, and that may or may not be what is best right now or what you like the most.

Mono is a c# compiler and runtime environment. As a result it will run some things that are not written directly in c# so long as they are for the .NET platform, but this is more coincidence than anything else. It cannot support all of .NET because a very large portion of it is proprietary code, and I use the term here properly. This means that there is no spec for it anywhere, and if one copies it this would be classified as reverse enineering. It is legal to do this for educational purposes, but you are limited in not being able to really use anything you learn from it. This means that mono is in a legal grey area right now, and if they work on supporting more of .NET they will clearly be illegal to use. Just as XVID is illegal to use.

There will still be people who use it for the same reason people use XVID. There are a lot of people who like to use DIVX but you cannot play this without the given windows codec. If you are not using windows or dont want to install claria you are shit out of luck if you choose not to use XVID. The same is true for .NET and mono.

Yes, there are lots of nice features, but think about the consequences of what is going on. I would also invite you to take a serious study of languages especially between C#2.0 and Java1.5 and also a serious study of platforms, especially .NET and JRE1.5

Microsoft has essentially made their own Java. They have made many changes and many of them are good like the use of delagates, but many of them are not so good, like their attempt to make network programming transparent to the programmer whom we assume to be idiotic. The idea is that you shouldn't know or care if the method you call is on your machine or on another machine on the network or internet. The problem is that networks and the internet are not fast enough or reliable enough for this to work. The programmer must make serious design choices about when to use offsite code and take extra steps to ensure the safety of that code.

There are many other issues, but I do not want to make an essay out of this, especially since I did click [FastReply] but I seriously urge you to find these things out for yourself.

[Mihail121]

Most of the stuff for Linux are not compatible with Solaris. Dunno how's it on the workstations but on x86 and Solaris 8 i cannot run mono...

[davepermen]

i don't see how the networking issues are issues at all. and java provides remote procedure calling as well, and transparent object transport over network.

my c# webserver is a low-level server, with sockets. just because i can, and like to do so.

the issues you mentoin are non-issues. i won't look into java, just because i don't like the language that much. i gave it quite some chances. but somehow, both code, and resulting binaries, never looked nice to me.

i knew i hit a nail by saing proprietary, as i'm using betasoftware myself right now.

for servers, solaris is fine. i thought you use it as your workstation. (i'm coding for workstations only. even my webserver is just another workstation :D). thats why.. and i'm interested how proprietary solaris really is (means how compatible with the rest of the os world).

[Mihail121]

It's difficult to define Dave. It's 100% compatible with the Sun's software, Quake II and Quake III so that's enough for me ;). But as you stated it's designed and mainly used for servers!

[NomadRock]

The arguments you use about networking in C# and Java show that you have not looked too deeply into the language standards. Remote procedure calling is useful and should be included, that is not the issue. Java provides an entirely different mechanism for remote procedure calling to seperate it from normal methods. C# attempts to remove the difference in the code, so that the programmer needs not know the difference. This is the network transparency that is the problem.

Network transparency is all about not needing to know that the network is even there. Java does allow you to transport objects over the network, but not transparently. You have to specifically send the data just as you would with any network stream, be it http or ftp, or what have you.

The first iterations of the STL for C++ were downright bad. Do you refuse to use the STL in C++ for that reason? If you do, then we have deeper issues to discuss. Otherwise, not using Java just because you didn't like previous versions of it seems a little rediculous doesn't it? Otherwise I will follow your logic and say that because VisualC++ 4.0 had a poor compiler that was not standards complient nor very efficent, I refuse to use VisualStudio.NET. Regardless of the quality of VisualStudio.NET, is this a good argument for not using it?

In out Computer Science department lab, we run Windows XP on Dell machines, and Solaris 8 on Sun machines. We have an equal number on each, but because Windows is horrible to setup as a multiuser machine, the Sun machines work far better. For example I can install programs in userspace and not mess up anyone else's work. On the windows machines I simply cannot install programs at all because it is impossible to gain administrator access.

I will go by your arguments. Most people do not own or have regular access to a computer. Of those who do, most do not know how to use it with any degree of usefullness beyond basic usage of the pre installed features. Using your logic, you should not write programs at all because such a small portion of people can use it.

Just because people who do not run Windows are in the minority in the desktop OS world, does not mean that you should just discount them as not important.

[davepermen]

for your installation issues.. we have highsystem.net :D exactly for this purpose (and thousands of others..).

i don't see anything wrong in hiding the network from you. thats what abstraction is designed for. i like that way. and i see no issue. you don't like it, your own problem

well, i follow all the languages and ide's (and everything else) more or less closely. took long for me to accept .NET.. i see no reason to adapt over to java now, it doesn't give me anything more, but takes away some of the things i like. espencially language independence is sorta cool :D

but anyways, it doesn't mather. it was just sort of a joke anyways.

i don't count minorities as not important. but people being less than 1% are rather proprietary.

[NomadRock]

Just so you know, proprietary means exclusively owned not rare.

[Ed Mack]

Solaris 10 runs linux stuff methinks. Also, Mono has no Solaris support by the look of the download page:

http://www.mono-proj...oads/index.html

[NomadRock]

People are getting a little too hung up on Solaris too. There are other fine platforms that code can easily work on using other languages like C / C++ / Java / Haskel / python etc. Irix for example is still heavily used.

[davepermen]

i know i use proprietary in a wrong way. i just got used to it... sorry..

well.. how should i call solaris then? useless? :D no.. dunno. well, anyways. solaris is too incompable to the majority of the world to be a good alternative for me to use.

[NomadRock]

I am not implying that you should _use_ it, just that it is pretty trivial to at least support it.

[davepermen]

depends. if i use features that can get support on 99% of the world, but not on yours, then.. well.. i prefer to suggest YOU to switch, not me. wich (looks like it) is the case for .NET

[Gendramen]

Im still finding the "Hello World (or Hello D, :cool: ) App
Where i can find it?