61 replies to this topic

[starstutter]

fireside said:

They spoon feed it to the player in cut scenes that you can skip if you happen to drool and have an itchy trigger finger.

That's why I like the half life method though. If the player has an burning desire for carnage they can still be destroying Dr Kliners lab while he's giving instructions. :)

[Sol_HSA]

Reedbeta said:

If there's anything universally true about "I want to make an MMO" posters, it's that they don't read. If we create a special forum for them, they probably won't post in it, because they won't be paying enough attention to notice it. ;)

There is, however, a chance that some of them do read, and if they find a forum with a couple thousand of those those posts, they may start to think.

A collection of said posts might be a valuable resource in that sense.

[ville-v]

Since we have some articles in Devmaster.net about the subject (for example http://www.devmaster...building-mmorpg ), you could add link to articles somewhere in your post. If somebody reads it through and still wants to make an MMO, the article I linked might get him started.

[Inferno13]

starstutter said:

when if fact it's one of the most difficult careers that a person can have.

One of the most difficult career that a person can have?

Ok its challenging but isent that slightly exaggerated?

[snoogans775]

Quote

They may come up with input devices that allow a little more innovation but mostly I think we're topping out.

I recently read an article on Gamasutra(forgot the author!) about the rate of progress right before and after the first video game crash. His basic presumption was that we are heading for another video game crash because of too much focus is being placed on graphical improvements and over-standardization of games.

But "topping out" still seems very far away. Plenty of big studios want to make the next "Shadow of the Colossus," because it sold really well on it's ingenuity and it's artful relevance to players. Indie games are producing an onslaught of new ideas which are creating new purposes for video games. Like any other art form, video games are just trying to adapt to the current generation, and right now it appears that tons of people still want to fire shotguns at point blank range, but indie games liek Braid and The Beggar are giving totally new takes on game design. In Braid's case, it's also making some pretty good money too.

[gillvane]

starstutter said:

There is no such tutorial like "how to make an MMO"
If there was and it was valid, it would make history. Even much simpler single player games cannot have a real tutorial because the amount of work, knowledge and experience that goes into them is absolutely massive and simply cannot be effectively communicated in the form of text. It's like reading about baseball as compared to actually playing it. Like reading about a country as compared to living there.

But really, all these arguments don't even need to be said because:

It's just infeasible and impractical
This is a good read if you want to learn why:
http://www.devmaster...ead.php?t=12978
.

Is this becoming less and less valid? Big World Tech has released an indie license for their Engine that costs $299.00 USD.

It comes with some nice docs, basically a tutorial for making an MMORPG (even if it is how to put up a server for the stock game that comes with the engine, which you can modify).

The server technology is proven to handle 10K players. I'm not saying you can get 10K players to join your game, or that all by yourself you can make the content for 10K players, but the software is available. Now!

You need to script in Python, but that's not impossible for someone to learn, and especially since there are example scripts for you to follow and modify.

There is a forum that offers support as well, so you can ask fellow Big World users about your scripts, etc.

I"m not saying it's easy to make and MMORPG. I'm not saying 99% of those that try won't fail.

But I am saying, maybe it's time to ease up on all the doom and gloom about making an MMORPG?

MMORPG Maker is a site where people are working on their MMORPGs, mostly with Torque and the TGEA kit, some with Realm Crafter, and now more and more with Big World Tech.

Stop by and chat with those people that have decided it is possible to make an MMORPG, or check out the Big World Tech indie license.

The Devs of the Hero Engine, used for making The Old Republic, have stated they also have plans in the future to release an indie version of their engine.

Making an MMORPG engine from scratch is a daunting project, but fortunately you don't have to.

[rouncer]

Its no big deal... you can actually unbelievably start one from scratch and be successful too. :)

[stodge]

I would say that if you want to write an MMPOG, scrape together $300 and the Big World Engine, or any other that comes out with an indie license. Or just learn it all yourself!

[fireside]

Quote

Is this becoming less and less valid? Big World Tech has released an indie license for their Engine that costs $299.00 USD.

The engine might handle 10k users, but normally that would take a server farm, which is out of the range of most individuals, and each server would probably need a copy of the license. Also, there needs to be a lot of modeling done, even if most of the scripts are re-used. I guess I would say, please point us to the individual that made a decent MMORPG that handles 10k users. Not only that, but there has to be a refund on that money so the servers can stay running. MMO's are normally a company type investment and the failure rate is quite high. The truth is there are very few individuals that can write a small, single player game by themselves. I would say in most cases this will be an individual throwing away 300 dollars, which at least isn't all that much money. What will happen is they will write a small cruddy demo and use their connection for a server and run 50 players for a while until they realize what a waste of time the whole thing is. Personally, I'll stick with the doom and gloom unless you can show me a decent MMO that can run at least 500 players at a time written by less than 10 individuals. Anyway, I don't personally tell people it can't be done, just that it's a lot of work and will probably fail, which I think is accurate. Most of these people have zero experience and should be starting out writing small 2d games.

[Sol_HSA]

fireside said:

Most of these people have zero experience and should be starting out writing small 2d games.

While I agree with all that you said, I think these turnkey-mmo-thingies is exactly what the i-wanna-make-my-own-mmo folk need.

They'll never get enough people to play their game for the concurrent user limit to be a problem (and if they do, they'll have bigger problems to solve anyway).

In the meantime they have something to tinker with, something they are excited about, which is a rather strong motivator for learning.

The small 2d games wouldn't make them as interested in learning. But, if they wise up along the way, maybe they'll try doing the small 2d games at some point, if only to learn how to make their mmo better.

[Cayle]

fireside said:

Most of these people have zero experience and should be starting out writing small 2d games.

Most of these people should work on an NWN persistent world or MUD to learn the ropes because that is a bit more relevant than a 2D platformer.

[alphadog]

gillvane said:

Is this becoming less and less valid? ... But I am saying, maybe it's time to ease up on all the doom and gloom about making an MMORPG?

If one is really setting, as an end goal, to make a successful, *MASSIVELY* multiplayer online game, it simply is not easy and people need to be told that.

The reason is not the technology. It's been relatively easy for a handful of years to string together best-of-breed components and get something online. In fact, the crappy MMO kits (Realmcrapter, etc.) have been more of a detriment to progress than an aide. It hopefully seems like a shift is happening in that viable platforms are being made available at prices that usually kept it to AAA studios; that's the inevitability of market forces.

The real difficulty lies in the execution of the whole project, from an operational and logistical POV. For example, if you think picking out an engine is hard, wait till you have to source actual art or coding talent.

Like your post, most people focus on the tech and not the daunting 90% of the rest of the project that would indicate success.

That being said, I honestly wish any entrepreneur (who correctly reads themselves as such) the best of luck. I am one of those crazies who think failing is as much fun as succeeding!

[rouncer]

Its true you do need to be good, but you know its alot of these newies dreams to have one of these all of their own creation.
I just say if you work hard over a period of 20 years, then you might be able to START one.

[gillvane]

fireside said:

What will happen is they will write a small cruddy demo and use their connection for a server and run 50 players for a while until they realize what a waste of time the whole thing is. Personally, I'll stick with the doom and gloom unless you can show me a decent MMO that can run at least 500 players at a time written by less than 10 individuals. Anyway, I don't personally tell people it can't be done, just that it's a lot of work and will probably fail, which I think is accurate. Most of these people have zero experience and should be starting out writing small 2d games.

I don't think that making a small cruddy demo with 50 players is a waste of time. I think it's a great learning experience.

I believe A Tale in the Desert was written by less than 10 developers and has over 500 players.

I don't think people need to hear that they will fail. What good does that do? It's not constructive criticism because there is nothing really constructive about it.

I think it would be a worthwhile post if you gave positive suggestions on how someone might make their project better, or have a better chance of succeeding, if you actually know any of that information.

But, that will never work, you'll fail. Does anyone really need that advice? I dont' think so. Discouraging someone from trying, is discouraging them from learning. Failure is alright, because we learn from our failures.

Not trying is what sucks, because you learn nothing from that.

[rouncer]

Im not against your hopes and dreams gillvane, work for it!
If your dream is riches tho... maybe thats not what you should make
one for, maybe putting it out there for free makes more sense.

[fireside]

Quote

I think it would be a worthwhile post if you gave positive suggestions on how someone might make their project better, or have a better chance of succeeding, if you actually know any of that information.

But, that will never work, you'll fail. Does anyone really need that advice? I dont' think so. Discouraging someone from trying, is discouraging them from learning. Failure is alright, because we learn from our failures.

Not trying is what sucks, because you learn nothing from that.

Well, I think what's needed is for the person to narrow his/her scope. Start with a small single player game, then add AI, then go to multi-player, from multi-player possibly expand to MMO. It's important to start small and work up. Most people have zero experience and all they talk about is the different races they're going to have in the game. It's cart before the horse. When you tell them they even have to learn a language they don't want to hear anything about it. I consider that constructive criticism.
I think one of the arguing points from my view was that people should start with muds or something but I disagree. Every game boils down to a game loop with player interaction and at least some AI. It's like saying I want to write a novel but I don't want to learn my alphabet. First learn your alphabet, then write some short stories, then write a novel. Some people will never get beyond writing short stories, but that's good because they actually wrote a complete work. They didn't paste a bunch of code and put in the character's hair color.

[rouncer]

but its obviously possible that you can make one, there is shitloads of them out there.

[alphadog]

gillvane said:

I believe A Tale in the Desert was written by less than 10 developers and has over 500 players.

Ten paid devs? Or "free" devs? What about artists and sysadmins? Because 500 players x $14 = $7000/mo of revenue. That pays for maybe one good dev and the rest would cover various overhead, like servers, bandwidth, miscellaneous expenses if they are incorporated, etc.

The take-home point when saying "I want to make a successful MMO" is define success for yourself before embarking on the quest.

gillvane said:

Failure is alright, because we learn from our failures.

Well, I guess the counterpoint is that history is littered with people who don't gauge the size of the failure. Failing in the small is, as you indicate, very educational, failing big can be disastrous, both psychologically and financially.

[sanman]

Aphadog, I think there should be a thread that classifies the various games under categories which group them according to common characteristics.

A lot of newbies might not see the similarities between different games in the way that a developer would see them. One game may have elves and fairies, while another may have robots and tanks, but the 2 games may be very similar beneath the superficialities.

This might help newbies and oldies alike to get more appreciation over what's been done many times before, versus what is truly novel and groundbreaking.

[rouncer]

I think only one guy made runescape.