40 replies to this topic

[bazso]

besides modeling and using a programing language what else am i missing/need to know how to do when it comes to making a game also when you and if you have a answer can you recommend a very good book or books for me to read if you know of any such books?

can anyone recommend very or reasonable books for c++ and 3d modeling and i will try and make this my last question about programing and 3d modeling that's why i am asking i just do better reading books ones that i can buy i don't care how long of a list you give me ether i would like to hopefully know it all

[Goz]

The main thing it takes to make a game beyond anything else is knowledge. That sounds like a very trite answer but it is so true. When starting off don't try to do too much. Set easy tasks and make your way up the staircase of knowledge (That has to be the LAMEST analogy i've EVER made :lol:) a step at a time.

As for handy books. The 3 books i own that are my bibles are The black book of assembler programming by Michael Abrash (You can download this for free now, I believe), Computer Graphics: Principles and Practice by Foley, Van Dam, Feiner and Hughes (Be warned this book is very hard going and very drily written ... its an excellent cure for insomnia though ;)) and Real-time rendering by Watt and Watt.

The last two books are pretty advanced though so unless you have a good knowledge of mathematics don't expect to understand everything written in them.

Beyond that I did all my learning in a time before the internet. I worked it all out as I went along (Was so chuffed with myself when i "invented" the Z-Buffer ... can't believe that Catmull beat me to it 4 years before i was even born ;)). So my suggestion is get a good maths book, get a good programming book, get a big pad of paper, lots of pencils and begin working your way up to an amazing game. I wrote many many completely rubbish games when i was younger and I learnt something from each of them. I'm, now (after 15 years), pretty good at it :)

As an aside: Its also worth noting that I've never come across (Though that isn't to say they don't exist) an excellent coder who is also an excellent 3D modeller. The best modeller can't code and the best coders can't do modelling. My experience tells me that the best 3D modellers were all amazing general artists well ebfore they started learning a 3D modelling package.

[dave_]

Goz said:

The best modeller can't code and the best coders can't do modelling.

Wow that's a weird comment, which is insulting to both 3d artists and programmers!

[starstutter]

Goz said:

Beyond that I did all my learning in a time before the internet. I worked it all out as I went along (Was so chuffed with myself when i "invented" the Z-Buffer...

heh... you just kind of summed my life up with that statement. About once a month I get this brilliant idea, go write it down, painstakingly work out the details, implement it... and then find out a week later that it already exists.

Either I'm at the intellectual level of those graphics pioneers or I'm terminally uncreative *~*

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I wrote many many completely rubbish games when i was younger and I learnt something from each of them.

You forgot to mention completley rubbish promises to all your friend consumers ;)

dave_ said:

Wow that's a weird comment, which is insulting to both 3d artists and programmers!

Ever hear the term "programmer art"? :lol: Flying Teapot Wars!

[marek-knows.com]

Besides being able to create nice models and textures, and being able to put it all on the screen in real time, I think each game should be fun! So make sure there is a good plot/story in the game.

If you are not making a big game (ie Half-Life etc), then at least make it fun!

[Reedbeta]

dave_ said:

Wow that's a weird comment, which is insulting to both 3d artists and programmers!

It's certainly a true comment in my experience. I don't find it insulting. It takes around 10,000 hours of practice to develop expertise in any field, and most people haven't spent anywhere near that much time on *both* programming and modeling.

Maybe there are a few geniuses (or really, really hard-working people) out there who can master both, but in the main it is a statement about where people's priorities lie, not their level of ability or talent.

[fireside]

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besides modeling and using a programing language what else am i missing/need to know how to do when it comes to making a game also when you and if you have a answer can you recommend a very good book or books for me to read if you know of any such books?

That's pretty much it aside from possibly an art program to work on textures and things. Gimp is a good free one. Start small and have fun with it.

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It's certainly a true comment in my experience. I don't find it insulting. It takes around 10,000 hours of practice to develop expertise in any field, and most people haven't spent anywhere near that much time on *both* programming and modeling.

You can be very good at one or mediocre at both. I personally think mediocre at both is the best way to go. It's too hard to find a programmer or a modeler to work with. That's why I don't think people should roll there own engines, etc. Most of them would be better off picking an engine and learning it along with practicing modeling. There are lots of things for the non-artist type now days with modelers like Vue and MakeHuman, also. So you don't have to be the greatest at either one to make a good game.

[Goz]

dave_ said:

Wow that's a weird comment, which is insulting to both 3d artists and programmers!

Yes but in the context of that previous sentence I explain that it is in my experience (ie "I've never come across (Though that isn't to say they don't exist)"). Sorry if you find my experiences insulting but I feel you are probably being a touch over-sensitive.

I do stand by what I said though and I can't see how that is insulting to 3D modellers OR coders. "You are excellent at what you are good at and shit at what you are not good at" seemed self explanatory to me ... I, for example, am a coder with a LOT of programming experience in areas ranging from 3D engine development, to low level optimisation, to network architecture, to Audio and Video DSP development. I'd far far rather work with an excellent 3D modeller than try and do the modelling myself. Im a shit 3D modeller. Do i find that insulting? No. Every artist that I know would not find it at all insulting to be told they are shit coders. They would rather work with a good coder than do the code themselves ...

[Sol_HSA]

bazso said:

besides modeling and using a programing language what else am i missing/need to know how to do when it comes to making a game also when you and if you have a answer can you recommend a very good book or books for me to read if you know of any such books?

Since you're asking the wrong question, I'm assuming you need a lot.

First off, what is this game you're talking about? Games come in wide variety of forms, and many of those don't require a modeller at all. In fact, it's probably best to start in 2d, get to know what goes into a game, and then later on trouble yourself with the additional complexities of 3d. Most of the stuff you learn in 2d are exactly the same in 3d.

When you talk about making a game, you probably have something specific in mind. Defining this would help in giving references to books and such. But if you just want to make a game, any kind of game, the requirements are much lower. You can make a simple game in C in just five lines of code. Granted, it's not a very complicated game.

But wait! You don't need a programming language, or even a computer, to make a game. You can do one with some paper and pens. Maybe some dice. Maybe with cards, maybe on a map. Many lessons learned in that world also apply to computer games.

[dave_]

Goz said:

Sorry if you find my experiences insulting but I feel you are probably being a touch over-sensitive.

No, I'm not that offended. I probably should have put smilies down to indicate the flippant nature of my comment. However, I have know several great artists who have become great programmers. It rarely happens the other because programmers earn more.

I know programmers who are great artists. I personally think programming, like architecture, is as much art as it is science or engineering.

[bazso]

Sol_HSA said:

Since you're asking the wrong question, I'm assuming you need a lot.

First off, what is this game you're talking about? Games come in wide variety of forms, and many of those don't require a modeller at all. In fact, it's probably best to start in 2d, get to know what goes into a game, and then later on trouble yourself with the additional complexities of 3d. Most of the stuff you learn in 2d are exactly the same in 3d.

When you talk about making a game, you probably have something specific in mind. Defining this would help in giving references to books and such. But if you just want to make a game, any kind of game, the requirements are much lower. You can make a simple game in C in just five lines of code. Granted, it's not a very complicated game.

But wait! You don't need a programming language, or even a computer, to make a game. You can do one with some paper and pens. Maybe some dice. Maybe with cards, maybe on a map. Many lessons learned in that world also apply to computer games.

it will be a world war 2 combine arms game meaning it will be a ground simulator a air simulator and a navy simulator all into one world right now doing a rush on buying books with information to seeing what was there durning points in the war

[Sol_HSA]

bazso said:

it will be a world war 2 combine arms game meaning it will be a ground simulator a air simulator and a navy simulator all into one world right now doing a rush on buying books with information to seeing what was there durning points in the war

I seriously suggest you plan it as a board game and implement that as a 2d game. It doesn't need to be turn-based. Making any of those simulators as your first game (or heck, first 3d application of any sort) is way over your head. Trust me. Doing that game as a 2d game will be a challenge as is.

[Nils Pipenbrinck]

dave_ said:

Wow that's a weird comment, which is insulting to both 3d artists and programmers!

But it is true...

[bazso]

Sol_HSA said:

I seriously suggest you plan it as a board game and implement that as a 2d game. It doesn't need to be turn-based. Making any of those simulators as your first game (or heck, first 3d application of any sort) is way over your head. Trust me. Doing that game as a 2d game will be a challenge as is.

yes i agree with but players now and days are wanting the really good stuff in 3d forum if the world was easy then it would not matter but i am learning how life is day by day

[bazso]

to be even more honest i knew what i was getting my self into here was not going to be no easy just another day walk in the park here i hope no one here felt that i was thinking that i just need some guidance like people here to give me a list of good books to start reading so that i can be on my way

[bazso]

Sol_HSA said:

Since you're asking the wrong question, I'm assuming you need a lot.

First off, what is this game you're talking about? Games come in wide variety of forms, and many of those don't require a modeller at all. In fact, it's probably best to start in 2d, get to know what goes into a game, and then later on trouble yourself with the additional complexities of 3d. Most of the stuff you learn in 2d are exactly the same in 3d.

When you talk about making a game, you probably have something specific in mind. Defining this would help in giving references to books and such. But if you just want to make a game, any kind of game, the requirements are much lower. You can make a simple game in C in just five lines of code. Granted, it's not a very complicated game.

But wait! You don't need a programming language, or even a computer, to make a game. You can do one with some paper and pens. Maybe some dice. Maybe with cards, maybe on a map. Many lessons learned in that world also apply to computer games.

also one other thing that's got my mind in a confused sate how is there such a thing to being a wrong question when one does not have any idea how to ask the right question.

last time i remember a question is design to gain knowledge questions are design for people that do not know that answer for which they seek to gain under standing unless you do not agree with this statement then i assume you are not from this world?

[Reedbeta]

bazso, I think you're missing the point. Reading good books will not *in itself* teach you how to create a good graphics engine or a good game. You need to *practice* to learn and we are suggesting that you should start by making a 2D game, learn what you can from that, and work your way up to 3D later.

If you start playing a new musical instrument, is the first thing you do attempt to play a difficult concerto? No, you start with little exercises and simple pieces and work your way up to the concerto. If you start learning a new foreign language, is the first thing you do write a philosophical treatise in that language? No, you start by learning simple phrases and basic grammar, and work your way up to the philosophy.

Likewise, when you start programming games you shouldn't expect the first game you make to be a 3D war simulation, no matter how many good books you read. You need to start small and work your way up to the big stuff.

[bazso]

yes i under stand mam but time is not on my side and i only have 1 life to live i like to try and learn how to do things as much as possible the other reason why i am asking about books is so that i don't annoy the more senior members with my questions i feel if i am able to read a book my questions will lessen *hopefully*

[Reedbeta]

Reading books is certainly useful and good; no one's suggesting that you don't read them. We're saying reading books alone is not enough.

You'll be setting yourself up to fail if you try to bite off more than you can chew.

[bazso]

ok got to ask the question have i annoyed you all? sorry if i did i am just trying to reach that enlightenment level as you all have