20 replies to this topic

[onyxthedog]

I was watching an interview for Madden '09 (The twentieth anniversary) from G4, and they were talking with their project manager(I think). Anyway, one of the first things he mentions is their grass. What, do you expect us to look at your grass as a selling point. Not that it isn't going to be a good game, after all it is Madden, and they have some amazing new features, and ships with Madden '93(emulated, of coarse.) I maybe wrong about the year, but it is early '90s. I just thought it was funny he was bragging about his grass.

[Reedbeta]

It's a sports game, there's not all that much they could brag about graphically...it's not like they are going to go off about their awesome explosions, is it?

Seriously though, rendering realistic grass is tricky. If they've gotten it to look good, that's worth being proud of.

[roel]

this grass technique looks quite hot though :)

[Mephs]

Some people play games to see e-grass. I play games if they're fun, personally. Good graphics are just icing on the cake, but you're about right. No one is really got their face all up in the screen counting the polygons on the football.

Brag about stuff like that with other developers, not with your main customers IMO, they wouldn't know specular from emissive (hell, even I'm not very clear on it!)

[Kenneth Gorking]

onyxthedog said:

I was watching an interview for Madden '09 (The twentieth anniversary) from G4, and they were talking with their project manager(I think). Anyway, one of the first things he mentions is their grass. What, do you expect us to look at your grass as a selling point. Not that it isn't going to be a good game, after all it is Madden, and they have some amazing new features, and ships with Madden '93(emulated, of coarse.) I maybe wrong about the year, but it is early '90s. I just thought it was funny he was bragging about his grass.

That made me think of this and this. The trend these days with AAA titles seem to just remake shit (like all the EA sports games), and not bother with trying to create something original. For originality, you need look to casual games, but they often suffer from being to short...

Reedbeta said:

It's a sports game, there's not all that much they could brag about graphically...it's not like they are going to go off about their awesome explosions, is it? ;)

Hmm, Madden with explosions... Sounds like fun :lol:

[starstutter]

Kenneth Gorking said:

For originality, you need look to casual games, but they often suffer from being to short...

Or indie games, but they often suffer from "epic fail" sized design flaws.

[roel]

Hey Kenneth, be careful with saying bad thing about Tomb Raider on this board, or .oisyn will... ;)

[Kenneth Gorking]

It wasn't as much a critique at the game itself, as it was to the decision to remake the game. I get that it was its anniversary and all, but if they wanted to celebrate so badly, they should have just made the old game freely available.

[monjardin]

Kenneth Gorking said:

...but if they wanted to celebrate so badly, they should have just made the old game freely available.

Where's the money in that? :whistle:

[TheNut]

Madden use to be a fun game, but after a while you realize all they do is play with the equations. Sometimes they remove things one year and re-introduce them the next. I pretty much gave up on sports games for that reason. There's no excitement anymore. None of that "battle of the titans" stuff. They should take sports to a whole new level and actually focus on a story, make it more dramatic. It could bring a whole new twist to the product line. Then again, it's a multi-million dollar market with zero effort, so I suppose EA will keep things right where they want it.

As far as other games go, I am hoping to hell Bethesda doesn't screw up Fallout 3. That's the only game I'm looking forward to this year. No time to focus on anything else. Just raw unadulterated violence with a touch of radiation :lol:

[Mattias Gustavsson]

Mephs said:

I play games if they're fun, personally.

Me too. But I think we are in the minority... most of the so called hardcore gamers these days won't even try a game unless it looks visually impressive.

Mephs said:

Good graphics are just icing on the cake,

For me, good graphics is getting to be a deterrent these days. When I see games with impressive next-gen graphics, it's a safe bet that tech and art is where they spent their budget, not leaving enough resources for making the game.

Mephs said:

Brag about stuff like that with other developers, not with your main customers IMO,

Absolutely. This just shows how little understanding the game companies today have for how to do business.

Kenneth Gorking said:

The trend these days with AAA titles seem to just remake shit (like all the EA sports games), and not bother with trying to create something original.

Yes, and that's only to be expected. There's so much money involved, that the people footing the bill need to look at minimizing the risk. If they make 5% return on investment on a low risk project, that's much better to them than a 20% return on a high risk one. Funding innovative games, or non-sequels, or games not based on a proven license, is just not doable.

Which is why we should be looking at reducing the cost, and reducing team size, by making smaller games with simple technology, but focused on the fun and the mechanics. For me, that's the only way forward :yes:

[onyxthedog]

Mattias Gustavsson said:

it's a safe bet that tech and art is where they spent their budget

That is not entirely true....... Someone had to buy the Coffee and Chinese Takeout.

[TheNut]

While graphics shouldn't be the prime focus of a game (unless your J. Carmack or T. Sweeney), spending time on interfaces and the visual quality of a game will vastly improve customer satisfaction. The key is to balance it with everything else.

Quote

Someone had to buy the Coffee and Chinese Takeout.

We have a fully stocked kitchen to use at our discretion ;)

[Mephs]

Mattias Gustavsson said:

Me too. But I think we are in the minority... most of the so called hardcore gamers these days won't even try a game unless it looks visually impressive.

For a hobbyist/indie, breaking close to 5 digits in terms of subscriptions or satisfied players would be an adequate goal. Seems often enough the lower you aim the higher you come out :P

[starstutter]

TheNut said:

spending time on interfaces and the visual quality of a game will vastly improve customer satisfaction. The key is to balance it with everything else.

Very very true. I'm not a.... graphics prostitute.... but I do want a game that looks at least good and has enough visual belivability to support any storyline that it might have. Heart breaking love stories with 8 bit polygon models are, lets face it, just laughable. I don't think that all games need good graphics to have a good storyline, but deep novel style narritives do not belong in the 8 bit era.

That said I do agree that companies put way more emphasis on technology than they should. The way you can measure just how much they spent is related to how much they brag about it on the back of the box. If half their USP's consist of "eye popping visuals", then you know there is no reason for buying it if your computer doesn't go to the gym twice a day and take steroids.

[Snooky]

onyxthedog said:

I was watching an interview for Madden '09 (The twentieth anniversary) from G4, and they were talking with their project manager(I think). Anyway, one of the first things he mentions is their grass. What, do you expect us to look at your grass as a selling point. Not that it isn't going to be a good game, after all it is Madden, and they have some amazing new features, and ships with Madden '93(emulated, of coarse.) I maybe wrong about the year, but it is early '90s. I just thought it was funny he was bragging about his grass.

Grass can be very hard to do, you have to render each blade individually and hope it doesn't become too much for the CPU to handle. His bragging is warranted and deserved.

[starstutter]

Snooky said:

Grass can be very hard to do, you have to render each blade individually and hope it doesn't become too much for the CPU to handle.

That's why god invented geometry shaders ;)

[alphadog]

I think a lot of comments here need a little qualification.

Personally, good-to-great graphics have their place. They help immersion and suspension of disblief, but it has to be for games where such a need exists. This need exists in Madden and sports game; they explicitly try to replicate life. It even exists in games like Oblivion, where it is Fantasy, but they are trying to make it seem as much like "Real Life"™. This need sometimes doesn't exist in other games, like shoot-em-ups.

If you are trying to create an immersive-lose-yourself-in-the-game game, like I consider Oblivion to be, then things like "believable grass" are a definite plus... especially in things we don't pay close attention to, but can immediately recognize... and as long as you didn't expend so many resources on grass such that other key aspects become neglected, like your goblins are low-poly stick figures.

On the flip-side, a game like Braid is not looking to be immersive in the same way, so its particular, 2D style is very apropos and even refreshing.

So, I'm not surprised someone from the Madden team would brag about representing grass in their game.

[Domzimmer]

I find it kind of cool how they put a lot of effort in their grass. I mean if you have the money and time for it Go for it! Not everyone will care about it but you can be chuffed with themselves :)

[karligula]

starstutter said:

Heart breaking love stories with 8 bit polygon models are, lets face it, just laughable.

Have you seen the special features on the King Kong DVDs? Jackson and co made a previsualisation of the last sequence with Kong atop the Empire State building, all low res graphics, basic animation... he showed it to the cast and crew and they were in tears, because the emotion was all there.

So I don't think it's essential to have good graphics to convey emotional, powerful experiences. If the heart is there, the rest is eye candy.